What agency has the most technical nitrox training?

[kwinter]

Speaking as a CCR instructor who requires students to have a background in nitrox I am amazed at how many nitrox divers don't know how to calculate anything except to use plastisized tables for all the formulae.

As someone who teaches remedial math at the college level, I am not amazed at all when people have to rely on tables and calculators. Unfortunately it is the rule rather than the exception, Dave. And most instructors I know teach students to memorize formulas or use the tables and computers instead of learning the math behind it because they themselves don't know it.

 

[Russoft]

As someone who teaches remedial math at the college level, I am not amazed at all when people have to rely on tables and calculators. Unfortunately it is the rule rather than the exception, Dave. And most instructors I know teach students to memorize formulas or use the tables and computers instead of learning the math behind it because they themselves don't know it.

if you understand everything conceptually, you really don't need formulas. If there's anything my fancy degrees taught me, it was that understanding is more important than regurgitating. I don't remember a single formula I memorized, but I remember the concepts I understood.

 

[tbone1004]

if you understand everything conceptually, you really don't need formulas. If there's anything my fancy degrees taught me, it was that understanding is more important than regurgitating. I don't remember a single formula I memorized, but I remember the concepts I understood.

that is why we teach all scuba math using "easy numbers" until the lightbulb clicks. Air becomes 20/80, the only nitrox mix we use is 40/60, depths are always in even ATA's. SAC rates are always in easy numbers, usually 0.5cfm. That allows you to do all of the math in your head and figure it out that way.

 

[fjpatrum]

Jim, we'll have to agree to disagree on that. I think the break down has occurred solely for the agencies to offer more classes as opposed to offering robust classes. While I understand that not all of us are young engineers that can understand the math, I firmly believe that there is no "middle ground" in these subjects. You can either do the math for nitrox or you can't. If you can do the math for nitrox, you can do the math for trimix because it's identical. If you can PP blend 2 gasses, PP blending 3 gasses is the same. If you're going to do accelerated deco, why bother teaching with 50%? If you're doing staged decompression, should it not be with the "best mix"? I think it all really is something that the agencies are trying to break down to allow them to make the most money and it's just wrong. You are teaching over and above what is required, hell that's why you're writing the books on some of these courses. Bring back mentoring, hold people accountable for limiting themselves with critical thinking on why something is a bad idea instead of holding them back with a card.

I think you're forgetting that many people don't /want/ accelerated deco or other gas mixes. They want Nitrox for a slightly increased bottom time or for "safety margin" or for "it makes me feel less fatigued", not because they have any aspirations at increased diving prowess or even goals. The breakdown may just be a money grab, as many of them are, but I tend to believe this one is more akin to what divers want/need rather than what dive agencies can bilk them for over time.

 

[tbone1004]

respectfully, that post makes literally no sense and has no bearing on whether you need an "advanced nitrox" card or not. The whole point is that if you teach basic nitrox properly, there is absolutely nothing that is left to teach for advanced nitrox, because there is nothing "advanced" about it. I do not believe nitrox should be a specialty, it should be required as part of every OW class and integrated into the curricula.

Nitrox required topics
EAD
MOD
Best Mix
If over 40% goes through something, it has to be O2 clean, whether that is the regulator, the valve, the tank, whatever. You have to cover this in basic nitrox because some shops are still completely idiotic and partial pressure blend regular levels of nitrox instead of running it through a stick. So what is there left to teach? If you want to learn accelerated deco, take a deco class, the point is that advanced nitrox is completely useless because the exact same rules apply to EAN21 as they do to EAN99. They just don't go over MOD with air because you'll be narc'd out of your mind before you oxtox.

 

[Colliam7]

That isn't an agency thing, you have to find an instructor that understands the math and science you are looking for, not easy in today's online learning world.

Absolutely! While there isn't a great deal of complex 'math', understanding how to calculate PO2, for any mix, at any depth - and then being able to do that with only a calculator, and in the absence of tables or computers, is useful. There are more than a few instructors, across agencies, who simply are not 'math facile', even though they are credentialed to teach a nitrox course. Similarly, being comfortable with EAD calculations, best mix determination, etc. is useful. If you want to go there, find an instructor who will lead you. But, doing that means you have to a) know what you are looking for (and be able to articulate what that is), and b) are willing to take time to talk with potential instructors about what they teach. Relying of selection of an agency, per se, may not get you where you want to go.

I happen to teach the PADI nitrox course. I have seen it taught very well, I have seen it taught rather poorly. (While I like to think I teach it well, that assessment is best made by others, including the students who take it.) I use the PADI materials, but include a handout that addresses these calculations, with several pages of straightforward computational problems. I also begin the class with a slide that summarizes the '30 second nitrox course' described (tongue in cheek) several years ago on SB by Peter Guy (Peter Rothschild): 1. Never dive deeper than 100 ft; 2. Use only 32%; 3. Always analyze your own gas; 4. Breathe. I do that to point out how really simple nitrox can be. But, by the end of the course, students are able to perform a variety of calculations, they can plan a nitrox dive based not only on depth of the site, but the conditions, the overall dive plan for the day, and consideration of what mixes are available. Students seem to enjoy it, I have fun doing it. I only 'test' them on the Knowledge Review in the student manual, and the 25 question Final Examination, and their ability to actually analyze several gases (although, I try to throw in a seriously hypoxic trimix, just to make them figure out what could be going on).

And, guess what. At the end of the course, they are issued the same certification card, card, with the same credentials and 'limitations'. as the one issued to students who do the online eLearning, and whose only point of contact with a human is analyzing a few nitrox mixes after planning a simulated dive. And, that is OK with me.

 

[uncfnp]

respectfully, that post makes literally no sense and has no bearing on whether you need an "advanced nitrox" card or not. The whole point is that if you teach basic nitrox properly, there is absolutely nothing that is left to teach for advanced nitrox, because there is nothing "advanced" about it. I do not believe nitrox should be a specialty, it should be required as part of every OW class and integrated into the curricula.

Nitrox required topics
EAD
MOD
Best Mix
If over 40% goes through something, it has to be O2 clean, whether that is the regulator, the valve, the tank, whatever. You have to cover this in basic nitrox because some shops are still completely idiotic and partial pressure blend regular levels of nitrox instead of running it through a stick. So what is there left to teach? If you want to learn accelerated deco, take a deco class, the point is that advanced nitrox is completely useless because the exact same rules apply to EAN21 as they do to EAN99. They just don't go over MOD with air because you'll be narc'd out of your mind before you oxtox.

I guess my TDI Advanced Nitrox was an exceptional course then. It was a few years ago and I don't have the course outline handy but I remember the instructor approaching it as an into tech course. In addition to "EAD, MOD and Best Mix" we also worked on trim, buoyancy, kicks, gas management, gas switches, SAC calculations, staging and slinging bottles, stress management and the technical mindset. And this is just what I can quickly recall. And while not technically part of the class, we also reviewed basic deco procedures and looked at several deco programs.

 

[tbone1004]

and not a single one of those things have anything to do with what that TDI Advanced Nitrox Diver is supposed to be about... Advanced Nitrox is not supposed to include any decompression, or any staging, so no gas switching. Everything else should have been taught in your OW course.

That is the reason the course is often described as AN/DP because AN is 100% useless except for being the prereq for DP and allowing you to get 100% O2 fills for staged decompression. The point still stands of Advanced Nitrox being a 100% useless course designed solely for the purpose of putting more money in the pockets of the instructor/shop/agency.

 

[CptTightPants21]

if you understand everything conceptually, you really don't need formulas. If there's anything my fancy degrees taught me, it was that understanding is more important than regurgitating. I don't remember a single formula I memorized, but I remember the concepts I understood.

Completely agree with this and it is my philosophy. I have no idea what the EAD, best mix formula, END, or SAC rate forumla looks like. Swear to god, I couldn't pick them out of a line up if I had a gun to my head, but because I know the concepts I can calculate all of these in seconds.

I still remember the first time I figured out my SAC rate while standing on a train platform. I calculated my Air Volume Used and then figured out what were the key factors that influenced it. I backed out time and my depth (which I call the pressure multiplier) and magic.....a SAC rate fell out.

 

[uncfnp]

and not a single one of those things have anything to do with what that TDI Advanced Nitrox Diver is supposed to be about... Advanced Nitrox is not supposed to include any decompression, or any staging, so no gas switching. Everything else should have been taught in your OW course.

That is the reason the course is often described as AN/DP because AN is 100% useless except for being the prereq for DP and allowing you to get 100% O2 fills for staged decompression. The point still stands of Advanced Nitrox being a 100% useless course designed solely for the purpose of putting more money in the pockets of the instructor/shop/agency.

I simply have to disagree with you tbone. I found it very useful. And like it or not it IS a beginning tech course. Of course it has to include all the above, except the deco, including stages and switches, unless one plans to use 100% the entire dive.

I will agree that there is a reason that AN is typically part of the combined course but I do not agree that the course is useless in and of itself. Would it make you happy if TDI required the diver to take it only as a combined course, and of course adjusted to the cost accordingly?