At Devon, you say I don't understand progression, you are right, I don't understand why PADI doesn't think that divers who are wanting to get into technical diving can't limit themselves, or think they will actually abide by those limits. PADI breaks it down too far, you can either do staged deco, or you can't. It's literally that simple.
I'm not sure what I'm failing to communicate to you.
Tec40 is a cross-over between rec and tec. It teaches technical diving basics, but limits the consequences of failure.... assuming that very novice technical divers can still make mistakes.
In respect to level, no. dives and training time, it is equivalent to Advanced Nitrox (only). Tec40 offers FAR more scope of diving, post-qualification, than Advanced Nitrox does.
It also offers a PAUSE in progression.... for those divers not yet ready to do meaningful decompression. Those divers who might harm themselves....
HINT: There are a LOT of entry-level technical diving students like that.
With TecRec, you can pause progress and let students remedy deficiencies before they take Tec45. In the meantime, they can do very 'lite' technical dives with all the correct equipment and procedures.
AN/DP is typically done in combination (i.e. the same as Tec40/45 combo). That creates a very 'all-or-nothing' scenario. You either get qualified to dive 'full tech' or you go home with your thumb up your a$$.
Hint: 'All-or-Nothing' scenarios encourage over-qualification of students, because some (many?) instructors are disinclined to send students home with zero to show for their time and effort.
If you can't, don't do it, but you are defending a system that is designed for profit not to produce quality diver.
I'm disagreeing with you. I think this is nothing more than an ignorant agency-bash.
I teach TecRec.... AND other agencies/syllabus. I find TecRec especially beneficial in developing good quality students. Most importantly, I
don't 'need' to accept bookings for Tec40 AND Tec45
combined. I can say... "
do Tec40, and lets see how you get along.."
From that Tec40 course, I have 3 options:
1. Issue no qualification and counsel remediation.
2. Issue Tec40, but counsel remediation before attempting Tec45
3. Issue Tec40 and counsel progression to Tec45.
You are far too entrenched in the PADI mindset that people need training wheels.
I'm a tech instructor. I trained initially with TDI. I teach TecRec. I also teach ANDI. I also taught BSAC and SSI. I've trained with other agencies. I've dived with elite level tech divers from varied agencies.... most of them, I think.
I'm not entrenched in anything.
You want to know my beef with PADI? It's that the recreational programme fails to prepare divers to enter technical diving. It's a failure on fundamentals development.
That doesn't mean TecRec is weak. Those same weak rec divers could just as easily apply to take a TDI program... and perform just as badly.
What I'm saying is that Tec40 is a great starting point into technical diving. It's meaningful and complete training.... but it's limitations in scope acknowledge that novice technical divers can make mistakes.
It's ridiculous and you can provide no meaningful justification for it other than to make the agency and instructor more money by teaching more courses.
You are spouting a stereotype. It's a sad agency bash... nothing more, nothing less.
Personally, I'd question if combining AN/DP for a total of 6 dives is more about money-grabbing and low quality than combining Tec40/45 with a minimum of 8 dives.
Since when did handing out plastic for absolute minimum in-water time become an argument FOR quality? LMFAO....
It used to not be like broken down, it has only started being broken down in recent years when mentoring became frowned upon because it doesn't make people money, so now we have to have course to cover all of the things that aren't fostered through proper initial training, and then a gradual progression through more technical areas with divers that are better than you.
I don't get your point.
Someone comes to learn Tec40. They take X dives to reach the performance standards. X is determined by their starting competency and speed of learning.
Where does that preclude mentoring or good instructor-student interface?
YOU are
assuming that all TecRec courses are taught to the barest minimum of dives, by instructors only seeking to cycle through courses as quick as possible, uncaring of student performance.... and will push them into subsequent courses to rectify deficits in ability.
That's a silly agency bash. .... especially from someone who just boasted that AN/DP can be done in as little as 6 dives.... 2 less dives than the PADI equivalent... Tec45.
The PADI and SDI/TDI system are frankly insulting and borderline criminal. They're for profit agencies, I can't fault them, but they do not have the divers best intention at heart, they are focused solely on profit, and you can't deny that.
Here's your mistake.... you confuse the agency with the instructor. It's the instructor that counts.... it's them that determines the quality of the student certified.
..... and not all instructors... especially at technical level are focused solely on profit. And even if they ARE focused on profit, that profitability.... AT TECH LEVEL.... is often rooted in garnering a quality reputation.
Tell ME that GUE
instructors don't care about the money they earn. The agency might not be 'for profit'.... but the instructors care just as much about their income as any instructor, in any agency. FFS.... GUE courses are the most expensive on the market.....
There are two reasons for the training wheel, babystep courses. You don't provide adequate training at the lower levels, so you have to have 18 different classes to cover all of the material.
So.... if a recreational diver went to learn Tech 1 from GUE.... how many courses do they need to take? How much do they need to pay?
GUE has fundies.... a BABYSTEP course...
as you say....to cover inadequate training at lower levels.
In contrast.... I'd say it was a PROGRESSION. A step
before divers embark on training (Tech 1)
they might fail... or if they got that qualification...might then kill themselves due to too-weak competency.
Are we gonna say Fundies is a rip-off course... unnecessary.... because it doesn't qualify the diver to do decompression diving?
Are we gonna say Fundies isn't needed as a remedy for recreational training not giving baseline core skills for technical training?
Are GUE recreational trained divers exempt Fundies because they're so awesome? No.....
Or you aren't allowed to fail students who don't have the right "mental state" and if they demonstrate all of the skills, you have to pass them.
100% incorrect. The TecRec manuals specifically state that mindset is a pass/fail criteria. They also encourage instructors not to pass unless absolutely sure the standards are met.
PADI proves this with how insanely easy it is to become an OW instructor, so their OW course is 100% useless for technical training, or allowing you to fail a student based on you not trusting them not to kill themselves.
Again.... assuming the quality of OW training. An agency bash.
Tell me one single agency where OW / entry-level rec training prepares someone for technical diving.... without need for progression and confirmation of skill-set.
Again.... PADI TecRec specifically directs instructors to fail students who (1) don't demonstrate the correct mindset and (2) don't demonstrate the correct skillset.
I don't know where you got this idea about "cannot fail students" from.... but let me assure you it is your personal fantasy, not a reality.
If you have a student taking full trimix, and you know it is only because they want to go dive the Andrea Doria the following month, and only have a few normoxic dives behind them, should you certify them? I wouldn't. If you have someone taking full cave because they want to go into Eagles Nest that summer, do you certify them? I sure as hell wouldn't. If you have someone who gets thru deco procedures and you know they're only doing it to start doing really long dives, but just need the card to get O2 fills, do you certify them? I sure as hell wouldn't. If you can't pass that judgement, then you need baby steps to frustrate them to not spend the money, but your description above just gives PADI more reason to go by their alternate name of Put Another Dollar In.
You are just plain wrong in your assumptions. Would you care to amend your stance?
Direct quote from the PADI TecRec Tech Deep Instructors Manual:
No instructor is required to accept a particular individual into a scuba course (provided the basis for not accepting someone does not violate local discrimination laws involving race, gender, etc.). In deciding whether it’s appropriate to accept someone into a technical diving course, or to have someone continue in a course, the following points are worth considering:
1. What comfort level does the individual demonstrate underwater? Technical diving imposes task loading and higher potential risk, particularly in deep diving when gas supply and decompression may create significant time pressure. The consequences of a problem have a higher probability of being more substantial than within the recreational envelope. A candidate for technical diving needs to be able to control emotions and put aside anxiety in the face of problems and task loading. An individual who demonstrates undue stress during exercises, a tendency to over react, or inappropriate emotional reactions may not be ready for the psychological and/or physical stresses of technical diving. The clues might include an inability to perform simple tasks
that they handled easily under “relaxed” circumstances; unnecessarily hasty or forceful responses to simple problems; irritability or anger in the face of minor obstacles, etc.
2. What skill level does the individual demonstrate? Recreational diving principles, procedures and motor skills are foundational to tec diving and need to be second nature. An individual who’s still mastering the fine points of recreational diving is not ready for the higher skill and knowledge demands of technical diving.
3. What is the individual’s physical fitness? Compared to recreational diving, the physical demand of technical diving can be much higher, especially before and after the dive, and during the dive in current or any other situation requiring above normal exertion while swimming. This means more load on the legs and cardiovascular system. There’s substantially more equipment, translating to higher effort necessary to move the mass and increased drag. Technical dive duration frequently requires heavy exposure protection; laden with tec gear and a full exposure suit in a hot climate predive can risk overheating and significant cardiovascular
stress. For all these reasons, DSAT TecRec courses require a physician’s approval prior to Training Dive Two in the Tec 40 course and before all other subcourses in the Tec Diver course.
4.What is the individual’s attitude? Compared to recreational diving, tec diving demands greater self discipline in dive planning and preparation. It calls for adhering to plans and following procedures closely, repeatedly and strictly, refusing to shave safety margins for convenience. In the face of a missing or broken piece of equipment, poor conditions or simply not feeling well, it may mean being willing to abort or cancel a dive despite peer pressure, inconvenience, and expense. Some individuals have the physical and intellectual capacity to tec dive, but lack the self discipline to apply what they know they should do consistently.
Note: That is just to ACCEPT a student onto a course....
How about this directive, concerning pre-course assessment and remediation:
Prerequisites for the DSAT Discover Tec, Tec 40, Tec 45 and Tec 50 programs establish the minimums for entering each. It is your responsibility to ensure that the student meets the prerequisites, through remediation if necessary, before starting the particular program.
How about this definition of skill mastery.... which IS different from recreational diving:
Skill development mastery is defined as performing all skills (procedures and motor skills) fluidly, with little difficulty, in a manner that demonstrates minimal or no stress. You may allow for the task loading imposed in each situation when
judging stress, bearing in mind that student divers need to perform all routine and emergency skills and procedures in a manner that leaves little doubt that they could reliably perform them as required when diving independently.
For certification, the mastery requirements extend to all recreational diver skills and procedures that are prerequisite to this course. For example, if a student diver performs all Tec 50 course skills to the required mastery level, but cannot clear a mask to this level (even though acceptably for a novice recreational diver), you must remediate the diver in that skill before certifying the diver as a Tec 50 diver.
....and then you imagine that TecRec instructors don't assess mindset.... so here is this:
For certification, mastery requirements extend to the attitudes students demonstrate. Student divers must display attitudes consistent with accepted technical diving team diving practices. With respect to the Tec Diver course, attitude may be
defined as the predisposition to make a choice. This is because there is a difference between, for example, demonstrating the ability to follow a proper predive safety check and actually using that ability as a certified diver apart from training.
While you can assess whether divers can do something and whether they do it during training, you cannot assess with certainty whether they will do what they’re supposed to when they’re no longer under your supervision. Ultimately, that is each diver’s responsibility. Nonetheless, you can assess the attitude divers display during training. Students who display a dismissive or otherwise negative attitude toward any of the planning, equipment, procedures or general self discipline and team diving required by technical diving do not qualify for certification and may not be certified.
So..... you've seen the standards. Prepared to reconsider your assumptions?
I also admit that I am a type A student that actually does her homework BEFORE class but still...
