What agency has the most technical nitrox training?

[tbone1004]

you can disagree, but you're wrong. Your statement confirms literally everything that I said before.

The class was good, that's great, but your class was an AN/DP course, not Advanced Nitrox regardless of what your card says. Your instructor taught you a lot of stuff that wasn't supposed to be taught in AN only. Not a bad thing, but you literally failed to mention a single thing new you learned about nitrox, instead covering everything else that is critical to decompression and general good diving.

Intro to Tech isn't a required prereq for any of their tech courses, but it comes first in their technical progression and frankly is a bandaid for poor instruction at the OW level. Intro to tech should have nothing new to teach if you had a comprehensive OW course which is why it isn't a mandatory prereq. If you did all of that and didn't get DP, then you got ripped off because you went over all of the stuff for DP. The 100% fact, that is no one can deny, is that Advanced Nitrox, as laid out by TDI, should teach you absolutely nothing that a properly taught Nitrox class has already covered because if the basic nitrox class was covered, there is nothing left. There is nothing magical about >40% Nitrox mixes other than having to O2 clean the first stage, everything else is applicable because basic nitrox has to go over O2 cleaning for partial pressure blending.

TDI needs to get rid of the class entirely. Deco procedures has a mandatory prereq of AN, AN is completely useless without DP, so just make a deco procedures class that covers everything. Hell they even state on the course description it is often combined with DP. Literally just a way for them to make money by processing extra cards and writing extra manuals, and for instructors/shops to make more money with more classes.

 

[Lorenzoid]

tbone's post above makes me wonder: Can anyone here articulate for me exactly what are the core curriculum items in an advanced nitrox course (say TDI's) that are not core curriculum in every recreational nitrox course? In other words, the OP fears some things might be omitted from a typical recreational course. If his premise is correct, then what are they? And I don't mean things that a "good" or "thorough" instructor might include but rather items that are required to be taught by every instructor every time.

 

[fjpatrum]

respectfully, that post makes literally no sense and has no bearing on whether you need an "advanced nitrox" card or not. The whole point is that if you teach basic nitrox properly, there is absolutely nothing that is left to teach for advanced nitrox, because there is nothing "advanced" about it. I do not believe nitrox should be a specialty, it should be required as part of every OW class and integrated into the curricula.

Nitrox required topics
EAD
MOD
Best Mix
If over 40% goes through something, it has to be O2 clean, whether that is the regulator, the valve, the tank, whatever. You have to cover this in basic nitrox because some shops are still completely idiotic and partial pressure blend regular levels of nitrox instead of running it through a stick. So what is there left to teach? If you want to learn accelerated deco, take a deco class, the point is that advanced nitrox is completely useless because the exact same rules apply to EAN21 as they do to EAN99. They just don't go over MOD with air because you'll be narc'd out of your mind before you oxtox.

I think we have different definitions of the word literally. That said, I was under the impression you were saying basic Nitrox is a money grab, not the "Advanced Nitrox" separate from deco procedures et al. On that, I believe you and I agree.

 

[uncfnp]

you can disagree, but you're wrong. Your statement confirms literally everything that I said before.

The class was good, that's great, but your class was an AN/DP course, not Advanced Nitrox regardless of what your card says. Your instructor taught you a lot of stuff that wasn't supposed to be taught in AN only. Not a bad thing, but you literally failed to mention a single thing new you learned about nitrox, instead covering everything else that is critical to decompression and general good diving.

Intro to Tech isn't a required prereq for any of their tech courses, but it comes first in their technical progression and frankly is a bandaid for poor instruction at the OW level. Intro to tech should have nothing new to teach if you had a comprehensive OW course which is why it isn't a mandatory prereq. If you did all of that and didn't get DP, then you got ripped off because you went over all of the stuff for DP. The 100% fact, that is no one can deny, is that Advanced Nitrox, as laid out by TDI, should teach you absolutely nothing that a properly taught Nitrox class has already covered because if the basic nitrox class was covered, there is nothing left. There is nothing magical about >40% Nitrox mixes other than having to O2 clean the first stage, everything else is applicable because basic nitrox has to go over O2 cleaning for partial pressure blending.

TDI needs to get rid of the class entirely. Deco procedures has a mandatory prereq of AN, AN is completely useless without DP, so just make a deco procedures class that covers everything. Hell they even state on the course description it is often combined with DP. Literally just a way for them to make money by processing extra cards and writing extra manuals, and for instructors/shops to make more money with more classes.

Hmmm. My opinion and personal experience is wrong. Interesting. I didn't realize opinions could be right or wrong. I thought they were just that, opinions.

And you are known for very strong opinions. But thats all they are. And mine are as "right" as yours. Especially since I actually took the course.

 

[tbone1004]

basic nitrox is a money grab if and only if the shop doesn't combine it for an extra like $50 during your OW class.

Quick recap

Nitrox Diver-first cert you get. You should have your primary kick be a frog kick, know how to back up and do flat turns, have proper buoyancy and trim, know basic rescue tows to get people back to the boat, and know nitrox math
Tech1-deco and normoxic trimix for narcosis management. Might as well just certify them to 150-170ft. Class is a bit mroe expensive with helium, but it's worth it because I start getting narc'd at 110 and don't much like it.
Tech2-full trimix for expedition depths
Cave1-follow GUE
Cave2-Follow GUE

Instructors must be rated for Tech 1 before allowed to become an OW instructor. Add a combined leadership course for AI/DM because separately they are a waste of time with the same requirement of Tech1 and you simplify everything for students and instructors. Have no wasted classes, and while everything is longer and more intensive, there will be less damage to the environments people are diving in because they don't suck. All certs except OW carry an expiration date that has to be renewed with proof of conducting those dives regularly, and then you can add a refresher for those courses. Any class other than the one above has been added for one of two reasons. To make more money, or to combat poor initial instruction. I might concede a fundamentals type course between OW and Tech1 just in case there was a gap between training to make sure everything was good.

---------- Post added September 18th, 2015 at 11:58 AM ----------

Hmmm. My opinion and personal experience is wrong. Interesting. I didn't realize opinions could be right or wrong. I thought they were just that, opinions.

And you are known for very strong opinions. But thats all they are. And mine are as "right" as yours. Especially since I actually took the course.

except you didn't take the course you signed up for which is my whole point. Your opinion is based on wrong information. You took an intro to tech/AN/DP course, whether you admit to it or not. That is what was taught to you. You are not describing TDI's Advanced Nitrox class, you are describing a class you took that was incorrectly called TDI Advanced Nitrox when it was actually Deco Procedures.

Per TDI this is what you should learn as an Advanced Nitrox Diver. Taken from the course page that says "What you can expect to learn:"

• Physics and physiology relating to diving with gas mixes containing more than 40% oxygen
• Gas planning, dive tables, dive computers, oxygen limitations, nitrogen limitations
• Equipment considerations, cylinder labeling, analyzing nitrox mixtures, gas blending procedures, and oxygen service ratings for using gases with more than 40% oxygen

Someone care to explain what is in there that shouldn't have been covered in basic nitrox?
Now let's review the exact same section from their Decompression Procedures Diver

• Decompression dive planning including:
  • Decompression gas choices
  • Tables vs. personal dive computers
  • Emergency and contingency planning (equipment failure, omitted decompression, etc.)
• Decompression diving procedures
  • Equipment selection
  • Pre-dive checks and drills
  • Stress analysis and mitigation
  • Following a decompression schedule
  • Gas switching
  • Team awareness and communication
  • SMB/lift bag deployment
• Proper trim, buoyancy and finning techniques
• Emergency procedures (equipment failures, catastrophic gas loss, omitted decompression, navigational errors, etc.)
• Equipment considerations, cylinder labeling, analyzing nitrox mixtures, and gas blending procedures

You took deco procedures, not Advanced Nitrox. Your opinion of your course is fine, that is not up for question. I'm glad you had a good instructor that went above and beyond, but per the definition of AN by TDI, you did not take that course. You took deco procedures, which btw, covers every single aspect of the course you described

 

[macmariner]

I like TDI although I don't know if its the most technical...
That said, I think its best to find a good instructor who has the time and energy to answer your questions and meet your needs. Yeah you will pay more but will be a better diver with better knowledge so agency is kinda irrelevant...

 

[Colliam7]

I guess my TDI Advanced Nitrox was an exceptional course then. . . . In addition to "EAD, MOD and Best Mix" we also worked on trim, buoyancy, kicks, gas management, gas switches, SAC calculations, staging and slinging bottles, stress management and the technical mindset. And while not technically part of the class, we also reviewed basic deco procedures and looked at several deco programs.

Now, I must say, that is impressive. I am not sure I would have thought of including work on trim, buoyancy, propulsion techniques in a nitrox course. But, it apparently worked for you and the instructor. It does sound a lot like what some people would include in an Intro to Tec course. Nonetheless, it does amplify the point that finding the instrcutor who will take you where you want to go is more important than relying on an agency label.

 

[uncfnp]

Now, I must say, that is impressive. I am not sure I would have thought of including work on trim, buoyancy, propulsion techniques in a nitrox course. But, it apparently worked for you and the instructor. It does sound a lot like what some people would include in an Intro to Tec course. Nonetheless, it does amplify the point that finding the instrcutor who will take you where you want to go is more important than relying on an agency label.

I didn't realize how unique my course was. Though I have to say that I don't think the instructor had to work too hard to get me squared away. I also admit that I am a type A student that actually does her homework BEFORE class but still...

Seriously. Even he TDI website says...

Some of the skills you will complete in this course include:

• Demonstrate buoyancy control; ability to hover at fixed position in water column without moving hands or feet
• Show good awareness of buddy and other team members through communication, proximity, and team oriented dive practices
• Demonstrate the ability to manage free flow from primary regulator in controlled fashion, shut down cycle, and switch to back up regulator
• Conduct appropriate safety stop while maintaining neutral buoyancy
• Demonstrate the ability to share air with buddy as both recipient and donor in a controlled manner while maintaining position in the water column
• Demonstrate correct body position; appropriate trim, such as horizontal/streamlined when moving forward
• Demonstrate proper stress analysis with self and dive buddy

And this is just a quick peek at the highlights. I really don't understand what all the fuss is.

 

[CptTightPants21]

I didn't realize how unique my course was. Though I have to say that I don't think the instructor had to work too hard to get me squared away. I also admit that I am a type A student that actually does her homework BEFORE class but still...

Seriously. Even he TDI website says...

Some of the skills you will complete in this course include:

• Demonstrate buoyancy control; ability to hover at fixed position in water column without moving hands or feet
• Show good awareness of buddy and other team members through communication, proximity, and team oriented dive practices
• Demonstrate the ability to manage free flow from primary regulator in controlled fashion, shut down cycle, and switch to back up regulator
• Conduct appropriate safety stop while maintaining neutral buoyancy
• Demonstrate the ability to share air with buddy as both recipient and donor in a controlled manner while maintaining position in the water column
• Demonstrate correct body position; appropriate trim, such as horizontal/streamlined when moving forward
• Demonstrate proper stress analysis with self and dive buddy

And this is just a quick peek at the highlights. I really don't understand what all the fuss is.

But nothing about deco procedure, staging, or deco programs, etc.

An Adv.N class without deco procedures is essentially an intro to tech class that somehow gives you a 100% cert card. Although in some respects you got the only card that really matters and that is the one that says you can get 100% O2.

I know that PSAI teaches an "advanced nitrox class" that is really AN & Deco procedures all wrapped up into one, and it is priced accordingly as such at $750-$800

 

[uncfnp]

But nothing about deco procedure, staging, or deco programs, etc.

An Adv.N class without deco procedures is essentially an intro to tech class that somehow gives you a 100% cert card. Although in some respects you got the only card that really matters and that is the one that says you can get 100% O2.

I know that PSAI teaches an "advanced nitrox class" that is really AN & Deco procedures all wrapped up into one, and it is priced accordingly as such at $750-$800

Oh no. I admitted that he through in the deco/programs. We had some spare classroom time.