What agency has the most technical nitrox training?

[Divetech99]

DevonDiver, back in 2006 and earlier, I believe PADI only offered TecRec Deep which is equivalent to today's Tec 50. I think it was only in 2008 or later that they restructured the Tec courses to Tec 40, 45, 50. Is this your understanding as well?

 

[DevonDiver]

DevonDiver, back in 2006 and earlier, I believe PADI only offered TecRec Deep which is equivalent to today's Tec 50. I think it was only in 2008 or later that they restructured the Tec courses to Tec 40, 45, 50. Is this your understanding as well?

Yes, it used to be a single program of 12 dives minimum, resulting in the DSAT (pre-TecRec) 'Tech Deep' qualification. That was equivalent to extended range. Anyone failing to make the grade on that course was awarded the 'booby prize' of 'Tech Apprentice; which didn't mean much at all. Many referrals were given; "go away and come back later after some practice".

Beyond that, there was only 'Tech Trimix'... a full deep trimix course.

That was what I first qualified to teach. Virtually every PADI Tech Instructor or Instructor Trainer back then was a cross-over who already taught for another tech agency/ies. I'd consider myself '2nd generation', in that respect. Subsequent generations are those instructors taught by instructor trainers who were PADI-only, then those taught as divers by instructors who were qualified by PADI-only instructor trainers.

The old style single course certainly required a massive commitment in time (~2 weeks) and money. I believe that motivated those interested to research and prepare themselves extensively before attending training...... or it deterred people from doing tech in the first place.

I can be pretty critical of PADI at times; but I don't feel it was a bad decision to split the course into three modules (and trimix into 2 modules). It made technical diving accessible for people and wasn't so exclusive or clique.

Tec40 is a good idea. It provides a bench-mark gateway into 'real' technical diving and/or it can be an end-point for those wanting more refined recreational diving capacity and tool-set. Tec45 is the meat-and-bones of the program and Tec50 is a simple course that does little to increase actual skill-set, but further significantly raises skill level and performance (in preparation for trimix and significant hypoxic diving).

Compared; like-for-like, with Advanced Nitrox, I feel the Tec40 course is far more 'whole' and provides a useful ability for the qualified student to go away and complete more 'lite' technical dives if they need to improve before embarking on Tec45.

I did TDI Advanced Nitrox many years ago with Mark Powell.... and from what I remember; it qualified me to use 22-100% O2, but not actually conduct any dives (decompression) where I could make use of that gas. There was some waffle about 'multi-gas extended no-deco' diving.... but I've never in my life seen anyone who wanted, or needed, to do dives like that. PADI Tec40 also qualifes for those useless 'multi-gas extended no-stop' dives.... but also permits very limited deco, which is genuinely useful.

Skill levels rise progressively with time and diving. Tboner is way off-mark to believe that divers should enter tech training 'perfect'... because there is no such thing as perfect. That's his lack of experience. We all get a little cock-sure in our early years of technical diving.... but with time we see there's always progress to be made. I improve every year... and with every year that passes, I realize I am further and further from perfect.

Training sets standards and skills for the diver....and time between courses allows them to ingrain those skills and get better; before progressing to learn new stuff or undertake more challenges. The real learning starts after training ends and certifications are issued. A good tech instructor simply provides the road-map for the diver to follow thereafter.

 

[tbone1004]

there's a difference in getting in perfect, and having to teach from the beginning. I'm not saying they need to be perfect, but you shouldn't be teaching them buoyancy/propulsion/trim in a class that is supposed to teach them about decompression. Same issue when people use cavern/intro as a intro to tech class, the instructors have to spend so much time teaching them how to dive properly, they have to cut corners on what they would normally be able to dedicated to cave specific instruction, so you are always going two steps forward one step back when you're going to the next level. I ask for critique on every dive, and study video from the dives to find ways to improve, we all do, it's part of the process, but you can't teach buoyancy/trim/propulsion and staged decompression in 4 dives, you just can't do it, so you get them "close enough" then in the next class you have to refine the btp parts while teaching accelerated deco. If tec40 was 6 dives with no stages but was just for getting people to look good in the water, get used to new equpiment and offered 10 minutes of backgas deco, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[DevonDiver]

....you shouldn't be teaching them buoyancy/propulsion/trim in a class that is supposed to teach them about decompression.

Trust me.... I could still teach YOU about buoyancy/propulsion/trim. I still improve my buoyancy/propulsion/trim... every year..... and ten years from now, you will still be doing that also. Then you'll understand.

Starting points may vary, but there's always room for improvement. That's your inexperience.

 

[tbone1004]

so we have to make this personal? my skills have no bearing on this discussion, you have also never seen me dive. And no, you shouldn't have to teach about those skills after OW, only critique to improve. Look, I like you, I like your blog, we'll agree to disagree on the training progression. I know you are capable of teaching quality technical divers if you're given a blank slate and can start from the beginning.

My point this. Deny it if you want, doesn't matter
If you were given a new student. Never been in the water. Given 2 weeks to train them as basic OW divers in sidemount with no restrictions at all. They would come out with good bpt, look good in the water, be comfortable without a mask, knows how to shoot a dsmb, etc. and would have a basic understanding of nitrox and the ability to do limited backgas decompression, 5-10 minutes because you have already trained them to do safety stops, so now they are just mandatory, no big deal.

3-6 month later the same student comes back and wants to learn how to do accelerated deco. Student still has good skills, so you take a day in the pool to make some slight gear tweaks, give him some tips on bpt, and then hand him a bottle for accelerated deco and teach him about gas switching, staging bottles on the lines, etc etc. Day 2 you are still in the pool for some reel work for wreck penetration because that's your thing, and you fine tune some of the other stuff. Day 3 and 4 you go diving and do some actual deco dives.

6 month after that, student has 100-150 dives, but wants to do some wrecks in the 130-150ft range so wants to learn to do normoxic trimix for narcosis management so you can take a night to discuss the decompression implications of helium, switching from helium mixes to no helium and the potential issues that can raise, and then stage bottles for extending dive time. Also go over inflation gasses for drysuit because of the helium in the mix. Day 1 in the pool to handle the actual bottles and clipping them on and off. Day 2 you do the dive on air to 150ft so he can experience the narc, then dive 2 has helium. Day 3 you do a dive with staged bottom gas, and two deco bottles.

Three classes, two that are the current 4 dives with similar training to what is in tecrec, but the difference is you spent 2 weeks making sure the student had the right skills from day 1 so you only have to take the time to tweak stuff so you can focus on the new material.

If you weren't bound by an agency, and a student was willing to spend a grand on OW training, you could absolutely run that course. Alternatively you could break that OW course into two sections, but if you were allowed the freedom to teach the way above, it would save a lot of headaches

 

[DevonDiver]

You say a lot of stuff that you've obviously read, but equally obviously not taught technical diving. That you tool my post as personal highlights the point I was trying to make. You want to believe... and want others to believe... that your some sort of perfect diver. You aren't. It's a misconception often held by the modestly experienced. Read about Dunns-Kruger for an explanation. Your participation here ponders to that personal goal, I think. It certainly isn't to learn, debate or discuss. You're only interested in transmitting, not receiving. It's remarkably dull.... so forgive me discontinuing what could otherwise have been an interesting discussion.

 

[PfcAJ]

Tbone have you taken a trimix class yet? Which did you take?

 

[Centrals]

back in 2006 and earlier, I believe PADI only offered TecRec Deep which is equivalent to today's Tec 50. I think it was only in 2008 or later that they restructured the Tec courses to Tec 40, 45, 50. Is this your understanding as well?

Sorry to barge in.
Changing from diving single tank over-night to 4 is a big challenge to most divers. I have seen plenty
of students really struggling even in the swimming pool.
I am pretty sure the fed back had prompted PADI to change the structure of the course.
The TEc 40 remind me of the old IANTD Deep Air course that I took in 1998.

 

[CptTightPants21]

Trust me.... I could still teach YOU about buoyancy/propulsion/trim. I still improve my buoyancy/propulsion/trim... every year..... and ten years from now, you will still be doing that also. Then you'll understand.

Starting points may vary, but there's always room for improvement. That's your inexperience.

You say a lot of stuff that you've obviously read, but equally obviously not taught technical diving. That you tool my post as personal highlights the point I was trying to make. You want to believe... and want others to believe... that your some sort of perfect diver. You aren't. It's a misconception often held by the modestly experienced. Read about Dunns-Kruger for an explanation. Your participation here ponders to that personal goal, I think. It certainly isn't to learn, debate or discuss. You're only interested in transmitting, not receiving. It's remarkably dull.... so forgive me discontinuing what could otherwise have been an interesting discussion.

Holy ****. The only person that made this personal about diving ability was you. You even used capital letters and basically called a guy with ~1000 dives a child. He read it as personal because that is exactly what it was. Funny how even after that personal comment he still kept it civil and was providing discussion and comments on the topic and you make another off color reply. There is someone inexperienced and childish in this forum only it's not who you think it is.

He never uttered or even insinuated he was a perfect diver, but you have the balls to ordain that he can "learn something about buoyancy from you", but maybe it is the other way around. Perhaps it is he who might be able to teach you how to adequately prepare a student so they don't have to go through the PADI 12-step program to become competent diver.


Tbone has been very clear that he likes the GUE style of training (even when he is not GUE) in that they focus and demand excellence of specific skills before allowing the student to continue, they don't do this throw as many classes at him, keep reteaching the same skills and just pray he's quasi acceptable by the time he gets up to trimix that PADI and other recreational agencies seem to enjoy. Tbone's point is that if you demand that they have a strong foundation in the beginning, you can cut a lot of time and classes out of the equation and they can do or be trained to do more complex dives.

One of Tbone's key points is that the classes are designed to force people to pay course fees. Funny how Tec 40 is a requirement for Tec 45, and Tec 40 and 45 are required for Tec 50, but TDI has no requirements for Deco/AN other than the person have an advanced diver certification with basic nitrox.

The irony is that if you go and read back through most of the posts, you and Tbone agree on most fundamental concepts and talking points, but it is you have repeatedly put words in Tbone's mouth and started the personal attacks.

 

[DevonDiver]

Holy ****. The only person that made this personal about diving ability was you. You even used capital letters and basically called a guy with ~1000 dives a child.

No. I said he had something to learn. I said I still learn... improve. I have ~8000 dives and am a full-time technical diving instructor qualified through multiple agencies.

The point was we ALL improve. None of us is perfect.

Tboner seems to fail to understand why successive tech courses develop skills. He feels that students should have 'mastered' skills before setting out on technical training. I'd suggest it's a path of constant improvement and refinement.

Anyone who found that insulting, clearly has an ego issue.

you have the balls to ordain that he can "learn something about buoyancy from you", but maybe it is the other way around. Perhaps it is he who might be able to teach you how to adequately prepare a student so they don't have to go through the PADI 12-step program to become competent diver.

Zero balls to say that. I know it to be true. Technical diving tuition has been my full-time occupation for more years than you and TBoner combined have been diving. I know my job... and my reputation in the tech instruction community is sterling.

I will remind you also.... I teach for multiple agencies, and am qualified with more than that. My views on PADI TecRec are fair and unbaised. I will happily state pros and cons. I merely sought to counter prejudices, stereotypes, slurs and ill-informed attacks that some 'internet divers' seem to enjoy smearing across forums.

Sometimes perspectives are relative to experience. The only issue here is that I can look back (a long time ago) and recognize what TBoner is saying and why. He (or you) cannot look forward and appreciate what I am saying.

A sensation somewhat like when a parent smiles wryly when their angst-ridden teenage child shouts "I am a grown up!" during a tantrum; truly believing it.

Tbone has been very clear that he likes the GUE style of training (even when he is not GUE) in that they focus and demand excellence of specific skills before allowing the student to continue, they don't do this throw as many classes at him, keep reteaching the same skills and just pray he's quasi acceptable by the time he gets up to trimix that PADI and other recreational agencies seem to enjoy. Tbone's point is that if you demand that they have a strong foundation in the beginning, you can cut a lot of time and classes out of the equation and they can do or be trained to do more complex dives.

You seem to assume I don't understand Tboner's point. I do. I remember wearing a GUE t-shirt way back in 2004... and it was then that I was first incorporating lots of 'DIR' into my personal diving... but didn't restrict myself to only that.

The fact is that the quality of the diver is determined by THE DIVER themselves. Skillfullness ... or strong foundations are a product of mindset, not agency... or even instructor. Although the instructor can help shape mindset to a large degree.

I deal with entry-level technical students every week. It's my bread-and-butter employment and has been for years. I understand intimately what the issues are. But when I try and share that experience... to illuminate those who don't have it... they take umbrage to it. Such is the internet. People speak differently through a keyboard than they would with their mouths in person.

One of Tbone's key points is that the classes are designed to force people to pay course fees. Funny how Tec 40 is a requirement for Tec 45, and Tec 40 and 45 are required for Tec 50, but TDI has no requirements for Deco/AN other than the person have an advanced diver certification with basic nitrox.

And you fail, the same as TBoner, to understand the simple concept of relativity.

AN/DP = Tec40/Tec45
ER = Tec50

Tec40 offers a lot more than AN alone. Tec45 is virtually identical to AN/DP. Tec50 is directly equivalent to Extended Range.

AN/DP is a combination of two courses. I can teach Tec40 and Tec45 as a combination. I can combine Tec40/45 with sidemount as an integrated course. It can be run in cave environments.

Two agencies; three courses, three cards each. I'm staggered that it's hard to comprehend.

Anyway.... this is all well off-topic.... so I apologize for my part in that. I've better things to do than defend myself, or agencies or discuss technical diving issues with ill-informed, unappreciative internet divers in the basic diving area.