What agency has the most technical nitrox training?

[Sevenrider860]

Correct, though I think Tec40 is just as idiotic... Why bother doing accelerated deco on 50%?

Unless things have changed, Tec40 does not include accelerated deco on 50%. If I remember correctly (and that is a big IF...), Tec40 allows up to 50% use for deco, but all planning must be based on the content of your back gas with deco not to exceed 10 minutes. So if you are diving air, your deco planning must be based on air, not 50%.

 

[Russoft]

I do realize Adv. Nitrox is technical. I mostly enjoy shallow dives to see pretty fishes not exceeding 40 ft, but I have a particular fascination with wrecks and I like to try different types of diving, hence I would eventually like to knock of the prereqs to do learn some deep diving with moderate deco so I can access some of the deeper wrecks on the planet, learn some new skills, and simply because I find it interesting.

 

[tbone1004]

Seven, you're correct, I didn't read through appropriately, but 50% is still idiotic. It's too high for not having to O2 clean, and not high enough to bother doing deco without 100% to help at the top. I'm ok with not certifying to 100% on nitrox, IF the advanced nitrox class is removed completely. There is no valid reason for the extra classes other than making more money for the shops/instructors/agencies. GUE's progression is most reasonable.

Rec1/Nitrox-learn to dive using EAN32
Fundies-make sure you know your sh!t
Tech1-learn staged decompression and normoxic *really only because they don't dive air, I'm legit OK with this because it certs you to 170ft, which is deep enough for most people using 21/35
Tech 2-full trimix
Tech CCR-learn CCR *this I think should be allowed instead of OC trimix, but it's part of my disagreement.
Cave1-third of 2/3's, no navigational decisions other than 1 t. I think you should be allowed a single jump, but such is life, is also only 25 dives to cave 2 so there's that
Cave2-complex navigation
Cave DPV/Survey

You can accomplish damn near anything in open water just by passing GUE Rec1, Fundies, Tech1. Three classes, very intensive, supporting of mentor style learning. Most efficient way to progress. In order to justify moving to the next class, you have to have damn good reasons for wanting to because in diving I don't believe there are any baby steps. You get certified, and you can literally stay at GUE Rec 1 forever and never need to take another class again because it prepared you properly. You decide you want to get into decompression, so you take Fundies and then Tech 1, now you can damn near anything in open water. Sure the classes are all about a week long, expensive, and exhausting, but you get a meaningful step in your diving progression and if you aren't ready to pass those classes, than you probably shouldn't be doing those dives, even with baby steps....

 

[seeker242]

I agree its confusing but I take it that he is speaking about a basic nitrox course that has a little meat to it.

Yes, the most meat possible.

Not everyone is a dive god with all the knowledge there is about it gained in a few short years. Some take longer than others and need the steps broken down a little. Not everyone is an engineer that can do complex math in their head. There are those who are just as intelligent, but in other ways, for whom math is a challenge and so coupling that with the proper mindset also needs to be introduced in stages.

I'm an electronics engineer by trade, so I'm naturally inclined to the more technical aspects. I want to know everything there is to know about the science and math, Dalton’s Law, etc. I've read that PADI doesn't even mention things like Dalton’s Law anymore. I have also heard that some people who took recreational training, when they went to get more technical training, they were told their previous training wasn't good enough and they had to do it again.

As many have posted TDI does have a good course. The original post said that there is a plan for tech diving in the future. If that is the case it would be best to find some one who can be a guide a, preferable a tech instructor willing to help you get pointed in the right direction.

Yes, I will probably want to become involved in tech diving in the future. I enjoy technical, since I'm an engineer myself. There is a local shop here in town. Dive Gear Express, they look like a tech shop and have IANTD instructors, and maybe TDI not sure. I've heard them mentioned here before, perhaps by tbone1004. Going to stop by there today.

 

[kwinter]

Frank, he asked about the science and math behind it.... Frankly advanced nitrox irritates the crap out of me, almost as much as normoxic trimix. The math is all the same, the procedures are all the same. Get nitrox certified and you're good for up to 40% because that's the limit before you have to O2 clean stuff. This should be included in all open water certifications. There is no excuse for not having it combined. It requires an extra hour of classroom work, extra 20 minutes to teach how to analyze a tank, and no extra dives. You need to be able to do MOD, EAD, and Best Mix as part of this.

Have a decompression procedures course that INCLUDES accelerated deco on up to 100%, because a separate certification for 40-100% is idiotic at best, and realistically criminal on the agencies part to just have more stepping stones to make up for inadequate initial training. Deco procedures on backgas only is stupid for a dedicated course, you should be allowed 5 minutes of backgas deco as part of your OW course. Mainly because if you dive the NAUI/Navy tables vs dive a computer with a fairly conservative algorithm you're going to have a mandatory 3-5 minute stop anyway and it removes a lot of "scariness" about deco. 5 minutes of backgas deco if you're running 30/70 is "optional" if you're running dive tables since the PADI RDP has an equivalent GF High of about 95...

One trimix course, if you can do staged decompression, you can do staged decompression. You should be using a travel gas anyway if you're on OC because who can afford to breathe helium at the first hundred feet anyway...

IANTD is rare to see the two courses not combined. The thought was to teach deco procedures to someone who is only interested in limited backgas decompression. TDI is also fairly common to see both courses combined *usually at no extra cost*, but advanced nitrox does not teach staged decompression, which is the whole point of taking the course anyway so you can do accelerated decompression on O2...

So yes, by the TDI course description, aside from the specifics of dealing with high O2 percentages, i.e. cylinder labeling and cleaning, valve cleaning, regulator cleaning, there is absolutely nothing different about it than regular nitrox. Deco procedures is the one you really want which teaches you about staged decompression and how you really really don't want to switch to O2 at 100 feet because it will kill you. Rumor has it that free radicals bouncing around your brain are bad for you.

Now, if TDI combined the advanced nitrox course with gas blender, and O2 service tech, then it would be a worthwhile course, but they don't. Which brings me to another point of contention with TDI which is quite possible the most bs course of all time "TDI Advanced Gas Blender". WTF does that mean? Now, Nitrox blender is the first course, which teaches you how to blend O2, which is really bloody important because that stuff explodes. It teaches you how to PP blend, which is important for decompression gasses because you can't run high FO2's thru a blend stick without risking damage to your compressor, and potentially everything around it. The "Advanced Gas Blender" is a great way for an instructor and TDI to rip you off by now teaching you how to mix helium. Ooooohhhhh scary stuff. It's completely inert, follows the same rules of PP blending as everything else, and if you can do the math on how much O2 to put into a tank to get the required mix when topping off with air or nitrox, then by God, you can do it with helium. You literally have to take an "Advanced" course to allow you to put helium into the mix.

Seven, you're correct, I didn't read through appropriately, but 50% is still idiotic. It's too high for not having to O2 clean, and not high enough to bother doing deco without 100% to help at the top. I'm ok with not certifying to 100% on nitrox, IF the advanced nitrox class is removed completely. There is no valid reason for the extra classes other than making more money for the shops/instructors/agencies. GUE's progression is most reasonable.

Rec1/Nitrox-learn to dive using EAN32
Fundies-make sure you know your sh!t
Tech1-learn staged decompression and normoxic *really only because they don't dive air, I'm legit OK with this because it certs you to 170ft, which is deep enough for most people using 21/35
Tech 2-full trimix
Tech3/ccr-learn CCR *this I think should be allowed instead of OC trimix, but it's part of my disagreement.
Cave1-thirds, no navigational decisions other than 1 t. I think you should be allowed a single jump, but such is life, is also only 25 dives to cave 2 so there's that
Cave2-complex navigation
Cave 3-DPV

You can accomplish damn near anything in open water just by passing GUE Rec1, Fundies, Tech1. Three classes, very intensive, supporting of mentor style learning. Most efficient way to progress. In order to justify moving to the next class, you have to have damn good reasons for wanting to because in diving I don't believe there are any baby steps. You get certified, and you can literally stay at GUE Rec 1 forever and never need to take another class again because it prepared you properly. You decide you want to get into decompression, so you take Fundies and then Tech 1, now you can damn near anything in open water. Sure the classes are all about a week long, expensive, and exhausting, but you get a meaningful step in your diving progression and if you aren't ready to pass those classes, than you probably shouldn't be doing those dives, even with baby steps....

These are 3 of the best posts I have seen that echo most of my disdain for the way most training agencies are geared toward more courses, more cards, and more fees. When you develop TNI as an agency, let me know. You should know that my Advanced Nitrox/Deco Procedures (2 courses combined with 2 fees) also included a nitrox blender cert at no extra charge. That made it a little more worthwhile because there really isn't much to AN other than an extension of the math from basic nitrox. However, there is something to be said for learning about helium. Unless you want to be a computer button pusher without any understanding behind it, then you really should learn about real gas behavior, compressibility of gasses, and z factors. Also about the behavior of different gasses in a closed vessel and the entropy of gas mixing.

Of course your 3rd post could be better without the GUE/DIR slant to it.

 

[PfcAJ]

Seven, you're correct, I didn't read through appropriately, but 50% is still idiotic. It's too high for not having to O2 clean, and not high enough to bother doing deco without 100% to help at the top. I'm ok with not certifying to 100% on nitrox, IF the advanced nitrox class is removed completely. There is no valid reason for the extra classes other than making more money for the shops/instructors/agencies. GUE's progression is most reasonable.

Rec1/Nitrox-learn to dive using EAN32
Fundies-make sure you know your sh!t
Tech1-learn staged decompression and normoxic *really only because they don't dive air, I'm legit OK with this because it certs you to 170ft, which is deep enough for most people using 21/35
Tech 2-full trimix
Tech3/ccr-learn CCR *this I think should be allowed instead of OC trimix, but it's part of my disagreement.
Cave1-thirds, no navigational decisions other than 1 t. I think you should be allowed a single jump, but such is life, is also only 25 dives to cave 2 so there's that
Cave2-complex navigation
Cave 3-DPV

You can accomplish damn near anything in open water just by passing GUE Rec1, Fundies, Tech1. Three classes, very intensive, supporting of mentor style learning. Most efficient way to progress. In order to justify moving to the next class, you have to have damn good reasons for wanting to because in diving I don't believe there are any baby steps. You get certified, and you can literally stay at GUE Rec 1 forever and never need to take another class again because it prepared you properly. You decide you want to get into decompression, so you take Fundies and then Tech 1, now you can damn near anything in open water. Sure the classes are all about a week long, expensive, and exhausting, but you get a meaningful step in your diving progression and if you aren't ready to pass those classes, than you probably shouldn't be doing those dives, even with baby steps....

Sigh. C1 is not thirds, and the 'dpv cave' curriculum covers DPV diving. C3 (not like its ever taught) is a long range/ expedition style course. I think there's been 2 classes ever. Same with T3, its never taught. Mostly about managing long exposures.

**Good edit. Carry on.

 

[tbone1004]

what type of technical diving are you interested in? It may be worth a trip up to Cave Country for some of the instructors up there. I would recommend Add Helium long before I would recommend DGX for training. They are close enough to you, and if you want to know about the physiology and what not, they will get it to you. Primarily a rebreather shop, but I would talk to them first if you're serious about wanting to know about this. Not sure they do any OC training, but Maggie might still be active teaching recreational level stuff. If you want the physiology, talking to Claudia Roussos will satisfy that itch.
That said
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/members/diverlee-113975.html
Shoot her a PM or email Lee. She is fantastic, lives in Pompano, is an ER nurse and certified thru deep CCR and see if you can pick her brain on good local instructors if Add Helium doesn't work out.

AJ, thanks for third of 2/3's in C1 and DPV vs C3. Edited original post, didn't realize C3/T3 weren't published anymore so thought they were interchangeable. Either way, it's the best training progression out there, and the only one that actually makes sense. Are the T1+ and T2+ courses taught regularly? Dead link to T2+ so not sure what that gets you, but 1+ makes sense for carrying a bottom stage if you don't want to go deeper but want to stay there longer in the OW environment.

 

[wedivebc]

Speaking as a CCR instructor who requires students to have a background in nitrox I am amazed at how many nitrox divers don't know how to calculate anything except to use plastisized tables for all the formulae.

 

[uncfnp]

Seeker. As you can see, SB is a wealth of information...and opinions!

You are a knowledge seeker (pun intended) but by your profile, still at the basic level. Most of the basic nitrox courses, with a good instructor, will give you all the info you need for your current diving. Start with that. But go ahead and start your independent study while you get diving experience. I highly recommend Deco for Divers. Also consider Steve Lewis (Doppler's) Six Skills. And research threads on SB. A lot of good info to shift through and that in itself is a learning experience.

Talk to divers in your area, to shops. Get a feel for instructors and courses. Deciding your goals and finding a tech instructor that clicks with you is probably more important than the title of the agency.

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . .
I'm an electronics engineer by trade, so I'm naturally inclined to the more technical aspects. I want to know everything there is to know about the science and math, Dalton’s Law, etc. I've read that PADI doesn't even mention things like Dalton’s Law anymore.

It seems clear to me that independent study is going to be your friend. I don't know whether the PADI Nitrox materials mention Dalton's Law by name, but the PADI Encyclopedia of Recreational Diving does. Just because it says "PADI" on it, some people might assume it's all fluff. The first few chapters do seem like fluff for anyone with a high school education, but there is also some good stuff in there. But that's just one source. There's a ton out there. Don't expect any course to teach you everything there is to know. I suspect you're going to have to dig if you want to delve deeper.

. . .I have also heard that some people who took recreational training, when they went to get more technical training, they were told their previous training wasn't good enough and they had to do it again. . . .

"Some" people? I'm guessing ALL. At least to the extent that recreational Nitrox is recreational Nitrox no matter what agency teaches it, and to do technical diving you're going to have to take a technical Nitrox course even if you've already taken a recreational Nitrox course. It's not a hardship--it's an opportunity to cement what you already learned and add to it.