Whaling: Right or Wrong?

[drbill]

Call me a bully, I want Japan, Iceland, and Norway to stop killing whales... What upsets me is to be called racist just because I think your country should stop.

Catherine... I think it is the title of this thread that suggests possible racism. To apply the word "shame" to only one of the three minke whaling countries leaves one open to questions as to why all three are not so labeled. Your post clearly states that you want all three nations to stop, which certainly suggests no racism on your part.

Just noticed Kim's post directly above mine. It says the same thing I am trying to explain.

Kim... I think the only Alaskans that are whaling are the native peoples. I think legally they are not considered "Americans" but citizens of sovereign nations living within the US boundaries due to treaties signed after the US obliterated them under the wonderful policy of "Manifest Destiny" (which seems to be resurfacing on a global scale these days).

 

[Kim]

Kim... I think the only Alaskans that are whaling are the native peoples. I think legally they are not considered "Americans" but citizens of sovereign nations living within the US boundaries due to treaties signed after the US obliterated them under the wonderful policy of "Manifest Destiny" (which seems to be resurfacing on a global scale these days).

Interesting. It still doesn't explain why America tolerates a practice within their own borders while condemning it so loudly elsewhere. Could we say double standards here?

 

[cdiver2]

Sorry I don't get it. First you say Japan is bullying the US by putting factories there. Then you say you want them. Seems to me you want your cake and eat it too :huh: Also - why is it Japans fault that the US can't care enough about the problem of global warming to address it properly? Sure Japan is also a producer of stuff that helps make global warming happen. Are you seriously trying to suggest that it's on a par with the US??? Do you know where Kyoto is? Most of the people here drive round in tiny cars with 550cc engines. The ecological tax you have to pay if you want anything bigger is huge. In the past Japan didn't have a very good record with environmental issues but especially since Kyoto it's changed radically.

1/I did not say Japan bulled the US.

2/ I did not say "I wanted the Japanese manufactures in the US."

3/ I did not say "I did not want them in the US."

I personally don't give a dam weather Japanese factories are in the US or Japan, so don't try to put words in my mouth.

What I was attempting to say in simple terms is *they are here in the US taking advantage of the laxed standards in industry*, so Japan is part of the problem in global warming coming from the US...and pointing a finger at the US.

 

[mdb]

Kim... I think the only Alaskans that are whaling are the native peoples. I think legally they are not considered "Americans" but citizens of sovereign nations living within the US boundaries due to treaties signed after the US obliterated them under the wonderful policy of "Manifest Destiny" (which seems to be resurfacing on a global scale these days).

Well put Dr.Bill. Your reasoned approach to this ongoing discussion is much appreciated. Having worked with the Japanese folks for almost 15 years I know, first hand, how my Japanese friends work to preserve the enviroment. The company I work with has been donating to many enviromental causes for years. The founder is a dedicated conservationist and votes with his pocket book. This "Japan eats whales" debate gets a bit lopsided when the biggest enviromental threat of all is simply us.
We consume more resources, pollute more, care less, than any other country.

 

[Mr.X]

OK - I just read your link. The data is a bit old and I think that these days the amount of minke taken is probably a little higher than in that report. What the report makes clear though is that the significant decline in Minke populations took place historically when whaling was intensively practiced. For instance - it's hard to see that a present day Norwegian catch of around 600 whales will seriously impact a local population of around 120,000. It certainly won't produce the types of percentage decline thought to have occured in the past - ie 40-50% - or even the 20% decline that puts an animal onto the list in the first place.
I'm not sure that you really understand what I have been trying to say here. I am NOT against protecting whale populations. I would NOT like to see species extinctions occur. I firmly believe that all nations have an absolute duty to conserve and protect the environment. I just happen to think that what is allowed now is sustainable and simply a case of people using part of a resource rather than destroying it completely. I actually dive in Japanese coastal waters and I know how many fish are there - plenty. In fact there are more fish here than most other places I've dived - including some supposedly protected marine parks.
The Japanese MANAGE their marine resources these days - they don't simply go out and destroy them as has happened in so many other places. To me this is admirable - and certainly not a reason for shame. Most people really don't seem to have a clue about the realities involved and then attack the Japanese for their practices. If it wasn't so offensive and misplaced it would be laughable.

I'm glad you looked at the data. Please continue your research.

Again, no one here is impugning the character of the Japanese people. You still seem to think this for some reason. It's stale now.

Most of the responses simply reflect a need to make a stand. Several whaling nations have made their intentions clear to hunt more pressured stocks in the future. This is probably the first volley before the next big strike.

Interestingly enough, I do think most people understand your stance. What I am trying to say is that there is a high degree of duplicity on the part of business and the IWC when it comes to saying one thing, but doing the exact opposite. Additionally, once they (whaling industry) is allowed to start, decimation is not far away. Stocks will decrease and they will simply raise their hands and say that they made a mistake about the estimated numbers. Ooops!

BTW, diving in local water does not reflect density, diversity or sustainability. What you got were snapshots of just that area for just that period of time. Hard metrics take time and structured guidelines.

 

[cdiver2]

Interesting. It still doesn't explain why America tolerates a practice within their own borders while condemning it so loudly elsewhere. Could we say double standards here?

We could reverse this. Japan beats on Americans for gas guzzlers while killing the few remaining whales we have left.

 

[drbill]

Interesting. It still doesn't explain why America tolerates a practice within their own borders while condemning it so loudly elsewhere. Could we say double standards here?

It's kind of like the Italians who "tolerate" the activities of the Vatican which I believe is considered a sovereign entity despite being embedded within Italy's borders.

Of course there are those in my country who have strong opinions against the "native" Alaskans conducting their whale hunts.

 

[drbill]

We could reverse this. Japan beats on Americans for gas guzzlers while killing the few remaining whales we have left.

One could look at this from the following perspective. Gas guzzling cars, polluting industries and other factors in America (and other industrialized countries) are a major factor contributing to global warming according to many experts. Global warming is considered a serious threat to the survival of minke whales due to reductions in krill caused by the breakup of the ice sheets. Therefore the US is a major contributor to the threats against the minke whale, perhaps killing far more than Japan's take through direct hunting.

Hmmm. Which is worse? Direct or indirect killing? I think to the whale population it may make no difference (although starving to death may involve much more pain and suffering than being harpooned).

Just something to think about.

 

[drbill]

Well put Dr.Bill. Your reasoned approach to this ongoing discussion is much appreciated. Having worked with the Japanese folks for almost 15 years I know, first hand, how my Japanese friends work to preserve the enviroment. The company I work with has been donating to many enviromental causes for years. The founder is a dedicated conservationist and votes with his pocket book. This "Japan eats whales" debate gets a bit lopsided when the biggest enviromental threat of all is simply us.
We consume more resources, pollute more, care less, than any other country.

Why thank you. You've just given me a few additional reasons to continue using my Bio-Fins (which I love) in addition to the fact that they are a great product!

 

[Cacia]

.....and I won't buy Gorton's. Nice debate. Remember, 100 years, all new people.