Whaling: Right or Wrong?

[mdb]

Anyone got the numbers on industry in the US that is owned by Japan. I think it would be a safe bet to say there are as many Japanese cars on the roads as there are American !

Because they are better quality, many, if not most, MADE IN THE USA, safer, with more fuel economy, providing lots of jobs to lots of US citizens. Japan leads the world in overall consveration of resources. Our own country, sadly, will not even sign international agreements to help protect the obvious problems due to global warming etc.

 

[tangfish]

Are there any arguments FOR whaling here other than:

A) there are enough around to keep killing them

and

B) since other countries are/have been destructive, its ok for Japan to do the same

Neither of these positions are very cogent arguments for the practice of whaling even if they are true. Seems like a sophomoric mentality if you ask me.

 

[Kim]

Minke whales are threatened. There is plenty of data to support this.

So where is it? The only thing I've seen so far in this thread was Minkes are threatened by global warming. I've yet to see a shred of evidence that hunting them in the present limited way is not sustainable - or that Japan is going to be responsible for their extinction.

 

[Kim]

Are there any arguments FOR whaling here other than:

A) there are enough around to keep killing them

and

B) since other countries are/have been destructive, its ok for Japan to do the same

Neither of these positions are very cogent arguments for the practice of whaling even if they are true. Seems like a sophomoric mentality if you ask me.

What's the argument for eating any kind of animal? Whales have been part of the Japanese diet for centuries. Why should they be expected to stop doing something they've always done in the absence of any credible arguments AGAINST it? I already explained much earlier in the thread the historical basis for their reliance on the sea and everything in it. In case you missed that though - it's simply because Japan doesn't have the available land to support large scale livestock farming. They historically have eaten fish and whales because they had to. Now before anyone jumps in and says that's no longer true - yes I know it isn't. These days we could feed the entire world without eating any fish or any other kind of animals. Especially considering the provable impact that such livestock farming is having on our environment. We don't need to eat beef, or pork, or chicken etc - we do it because we want to - regardless that right now both cows and chickens are harbouring diseases that could be catastrophic (according to some predictions - will be) It's not something that I can see changing anytime soon. No - no-one else wants to change what THEY do - they just want the Japanese to.

 

[Mr.X]

So where is it? The only thing I've seen so far in this thread was Minkes are threatened by global warming. I've yet to see a shred of evidence that hunting them in the present limited way is not sustainable - or that Japan is going to be responsible for their extinction.

Haven't gone to sleep I see and still hoisting the flag. Again you amaze with your linearity.

Some older data: http://redlist.org/search/details.php?species=2474.

 

[Kim]

Haven't gone to sleep I see and still hoisting the flag. Again you amaze with your linearity.

Some older data: http://redlist.org/search/details.php?species=2474.

Trying to turn the argument into personal attacks is just weakening your position. I'll read the link you provided.

 

[Cacia]

well, for all the naturalists out there, bullying is very natural. I am willing to bully on this one.
It would be difficult to debate global warming at the same time....there are some major problems with the Kyoto (sp?) treaty. I do not think Greenpeace should rule the world, but I like the fact that they are out there and providing us with a big dose of reality in places that we might not otherwise have eyes. Call me a bully, I want Japan, Iceland, and Norway to stop killing whales. I am prepared to pressure. If Norwegians and Japanese want to pressure us on something, I am sure they will, and do. What upsets me is to be called racist just because I think your country should stop.

 

[archman]

Trying to turn the argument into personal attacks is just weakening your position. I'll read the link you provided.

It's not a very well-worded document. Highly confusing. I've read better.

Basically it splits up minkes into several sub-populations, and frequently refers to "historic populations". Which is only somewhat relevant, as the main argument today is about sustaining current minke stocks.

Which, given the minke's generation time and current levels, is most probably sustainable at current whaling intensities. Picking off less than 1% of stocks annually is more than reasonable by almost any ecological standards. The sub-populations are of some concern, but that can easily be managed by appropriately divvying up culling intensity by region.

Now if there was some effort to restore minkes to their historic populations, that would be different. Few are actually considering that, however.

 

[Kim]

OK - I just read your link. The data is a bit old and I think that these days the amount of minke taken is probably a little higher than in that report. What the report makes clear though is that the significant decline in Minke populations took place historically when whaling was intensively practiced. For instance - it's hard to see that a present day Norwegian catch of around 600 whales will seriously impact a local population of around 120,000. It certainly won't produce the types of percentage decline thought to have occured in the past - ie 40-50% - or even the 20% decline that puts an animal onto the list in the first place.
I'm not sure that you really understand what I have been trying to say here. I am NOT against protecting whale populations. I would NOT like to see species extinctions occur. I firmly believe that all nations have an absolute duty to conserve and protect the environment. I just happen to think that what is allowed now is sustainable and simply a case of people using part of a resource rather than destroying it completely. I actually dive in Japanese coastal waters and I know how many fish are there - plenty. In fact there are more fish here than most other places I've dived - including some supposedly protected marine parks.
The Japanese MANAGE their marine resources these days - they don't simply go out and destroy them as has happened in so many other places. To me this is admirable - and certainly not a reason for shame. Most people really don't seem to have a clue about the realities involved and then attack the Japanese for their practices. If it wasn't so offensive and misplaced it would be laughable.

 

[Kim]

What upsets me is to be called racist just because I think your country should stop.

I don't think that it's racist to want Japan to stop whaling. It's simply a point of view. What IS racist is singling Japan out as being the only people doing it. Whenever these threads get started it's always Japan that's held up as the guilty party. That's what is racist. Talking about 'whaling nations', or mentioning everyone in the same way (as you did) would be a lot fairer than focusing on one country. By the way - they catch whales in Alaska too you know - so for all it's words I guess that makes America a whaling nation too. Out of curiosity is anyone trying to put a stop to that? Do the Greenpeace boats ever blockade Anchorage?