Whaling: Right or Wrong?

[Law5Guy]

Native Americans should be prohibited from whaling also?

http://www.makah.com/whaling.htm

 

[Kim]

After a nights sleep I come back to the thread and still no facts! We even have one admitted Greenpeace rep in this discussion who actually worked in this field - surely if there was provable evidence of the harm that whaling does in it's present form Greenpeace would know about it? I haven't seen it laid out here though.

As for the bullying accusation and denial. That one is easy. You only have to look at the recent World Trade talks in Hong Kong to see that both the US and Europe don't give a fish about the worlds farmers as they steadfastly refuse to do anything about their subsidy systems while trying to force the same people to accept their goods. If that's not bullying I don't know what is. Another example is the amazing way that America tries to force everyone to accept their beef while still refusing to accept UK beef because of mad cow disease. There have been cases of the disease occuring in the States much more recently than in the UK. Just last week under US pressure the Japanese were forced to open up to US imports again under pressure from the US. Doesn't anyone find that completely hypocritical? And these are the people who lecture everyone else? I have many good friends in the US and realize that not everyone thinks the same there - so it's unfair to blame all Americans for the activities of their government, but it's a joke to think that the US is anything but a bully in just about all things to do with trade.
KOMPRESSOR has pointed out that whale meat is actually very available in Norway. It's not in Japan. It's probably well available in Iceland too. As usual though this thread was to attack only the Japanese - as every thread on this topic (and there have been many) always do. This is what is racist. To a great degree it's also hypocritical when the greatest global threat to whale stocks seems to be from global warming - not hunting - and the country that undeniably produces the most green house gases and contribute the most to that is the very same one that is crying the loudest about whale hunting!!! Some have said that it's a case of getting Japan to care about the issue. From one perspective I can see that but actually think that they do - just not the way that is being asked. They just care that there will be whales left for them to eat in the future. On the subject of caring though - when will the US ever care enough about the environment to alter it's stand on a range of much more serious problems? Ones that might not just make whales extinct - but the rest of us as well.

 

[archman]

Regarding the science;
If the Japanese conduct science, who's peer reviewing it and where is it published?

Most research comes out of the Japan Institute for Cetacean Research (ICR).
http://www.icrwhale.org/abouticr.htm

They publish quite a bit.
http://www.icrwhale.org/JARPAReview1.htm

This is why it's sometimes difficult to track down the articles.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v436/n7053/full/436912c.html

Good scientists look for the most minimally invasive way to gather data, which typically isn't with a flensing knife on the deck of a trawler.

*Good scientists* seek to get the best data possible to forward their hypothesis. Moralizing isn't in our credo. We're only minimally invasive when it's either in our best interest (ecologists), or we're required by law to be (nuclear science, live animal research). Personal preferences aren't supposed to factor, although they often do. Our best fisheries data comes from trawlers and longliners.

I don't have to agree with the mode used to get the data, but the data itself is good. The key issue is that a lot of this work can easily be accomplished with far fewer whales harvested, and the research can be done a lot more intelligently.

 

[Law5Guy]

global warming

Here in my part of Florida it will be 40°F or 4°C tonight. I wish this global warming thing would hurry up and get here. Brrrr!

 

[cdiver2]

After a nights sleep I come back to the thread and still no facts! We even have one admitted Greenpeace rep in this discussion who actually worked in this field - surely if there was provable evidence of the harm that whaling does in it's present form Greenpeace would know about it? I haven't seen it laid out here though.

As for the bullying accusation and denial. That one is easy. You only have to look at the recent World Trade talks in Hong Kong to see that both the US and Europe don't give a fish about the worlds farmers as they steadfastly refuse to do anything about their subsidy systems while trying to force the same people to accept their goods. If that's not bullying I don't know what is. Another example is the amazing way that America tries to force everyone to accept their beef while still refusing to accept UK beef because of mad cow disease. There have been cases of the disease occuring in the States much more recently than in the UK. Just last week under US pressure the Japanese were forced to open up to US imports again under pressure from the US. Doesn't anyone find that completely hypocritical? And these are the people who lecture everyone else? I have many good friends in the US and realize that not everyone thinks the same there - so it's unfair to blame all Americans for the activities of their government, but it's a joke to think that the US is anything but a bully in just about all things to do with trade.
KOMPRESSOR has pointed out that whale meat is actually very available in Norway. It's not in Japan. It's probably well available in Iceland too. As usual though this thread was to attack only the Japanese - as every thread on this topic (and there have been many) always do. This is what is racist. To a great degree it's also hypocritical when the greatest global threat to whale stocks seems to be from global warming - not hunting - and the country that undeniably produces the most green house gases and contribute the most to that is the very same one that is crying the loudest about whale hunting!!! Some have said that it's a case of getting Japan to care about the issue. From one perspective I can see that but actually think that they do - just not the way that is being asked. They just care that there will be whales left for them to eat in the future. On the subject of caring though - when will the US ever care enough about the environment to alter it's stand on a range of much more serious problems? Ones that might not just make whales extinct - but the rest of us as well.

Anyone got the numbers on industry in the US that is owned by Japan. I think it would be a safe bet to say there are as many Japanese cars on the roads as there are American, Look in a lot of American motor vehicles...made in Japan assembled in the US....BULLYING !

 

[Kim]

Thank you Archman, facts help a lot in a discussion like this.

The key issue is that a lot of this work can easily be accomplished with far fewer whales harvested, and the research can be done a lot more intelligently.

I don't know enough about it to know what would be a smaller number of sample size to achieve the same goal. It seems to me though that the Japanese have to pay for this research completely on their own - the boats - the personnel etc. They also submit their proposals to the IWC and presumably the quotas are decided there. It's hard to blame them for trying to recover at least part of their costs.

 

[Kim]

Anyone got the numbers on industry in the US that is owned by Japan. I think it would be a safe bet to say there are as many Japanese cars on the roads as there are American, Look in a lot of American motor vehicles...made in Japan assembled in the US....BULLYING !

That's a laugh LOL. By putting some of their manufacturing in other countries the Japanese actually provide hundreds of thousands of jobs to those countries rather than keeping them all in Japan. The last time I checked people fell over each other trying to attract these manufacturers to their neck of the woods. Meanwhile where I live in Japan they have been trying unsuccessfully for years (since the collapse of the coal mining in this area) to attract a Toyota plant. In spite of the cheapest land in Japan and huge financial incentives it never happened. The result has been a population decline in this area of around 90% in the last 30 years and a present day crisis in local government finances due to the disproportionate numbers of old people in the area. Anyone working for the government here has already received a 5% salary cut in the last 2 years and will have to swallow another 7% over the next 3. You don't want the Japanese factories in the US? Great - send them back here!!!!

 

[cdiver2]

That's a laugh LOL. By putting some of their manufacturing in other countries the Japanese actually provide hundreds of thousands of jobs to those countries rather than keeping them all in Japan. The last time I checked people fell over each other trying to attract these manufacturers to their neck of the woods. Meanwhile where I live in Japan they have been trying unsuccessfully for years (since the collapse of the coal mining in this area) to attract a Toyota plant. In spite of the cheapest land in Japan and huge financial incentives it never happened. The result has been a population decline in this area of around 90% in the last 30 years and a present day crisis in local government finances due to the disproportionate numbers of old people in the area. Anyone working for the government here has already received a 5% salary cut in the last 2 years and will have to swallow another 7% over the next 3. You don't want the Japanese factories in the US? Great - send them back here!!!!

Don't want. What I did say and you completely ignored is Japan is taking advantage of industry in the US (in a big way) and then people like you have the gonads to point the finger at US industry, omitting the fact that you are part of it.. Yes I agree the US has a problem with global warming and there failure to address it, and Japan is part of that problem. If you want to talk racist how about S**ting on someone else's door step and then pointing the finger at them.

 

[Mr.X]

After a nights sleep I come back to the thread and still no facts! We even have one admitted Greenpeace rep in this discussion who actually worked in this field - surely if there was provable evidence of the harm that whaling does in it's present form Greenpeace would know about it? I haven't seen it laid out here though.


KOMPRESSOR has pointed out that whale meat is actually very available in Norway. It's not in Japan. It's probably well available in Iceland too. As usual though this thread was to attack only the Japanese - as every thread on this topic (and there have been many) always do. This is what is racist.

You simply amaze in multiple ways. Minke whales are threatened. There is plenty of data to support this. Look it up and stop whining. Additionally, stop hoisting the racism flag. As far as I've read most posters have stated the obvious - Japan continues to lead the way in harvesting whales under the guise of scientific research. Norway and Iceland probably not lagging far behind. Data could be easily gathered using non-lethal methods as endorsed by the WWF. Look that up too if you feel inclined.

Do me a favor go back to sleep.

 

[Kim]

Don't want. What I did say and you completely ignored is Japan is taking advantage of industry in the US (in a big way) and then people like you have the gonads to point the finger at US industry, omitting the fact that you are part of it.. Yes I agree the US has a problem with global warming and there failure to address it, and Japan is part of that problem. If you want to talk racist how about S**ting on someone else's door step and then pointing the finger at them.

Sorry I don't get it. First you say Japan is bullying the US by putting factories there. Then you say you want them. Seems to me you want your cake and eat it too :huh: Also - why is it Japans fault that the US can't care enough about the problem of global warming to address it properly? Sure Japan is also a producer of stuff that helps make global warming happen. Are you seriously trying to suggest that it's on a par with the US??? Do you know where Kyoto is? Most of the people here drive round in tiny cars with 550cc engines. The ecological tax you have to pay if you want anything bigger is huge. In the past Japan didn't have a very good record with environmental issues but especially since Kyoto it's changed radically.