W-T-F?? part II

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I'm just not an absolutist. I'd say you need be conscious of any damage and strive to minimize it. We have to accept some level of damage, though, or just have everyone stop cave diving entirely.

I think we're in agreement. Yes, just being in the caves results in some change to it. Our bubbles change the ceiling, albeit over a very long period of time.

I don't know how you get better without causing some damage to begin with though...

In open water. Maybe it was fortunate that when I learned to cave dive I lived 2000 miles from cave country. I spend many weekends in a lake running line and practicing my cave diving skills in 15-20 ffw. I ran line, practiced cylinder deployment and retrieval, no visibility line following, no mask line following, air shares, etc. While it's a different environment, it will improve your skills. And it doesn't damage the caves. How many divers take the time to do dives just focused on skills?
 
In open water. Maybe it was fortunate that when I learned to cave dive I lived 2000 miles from cave country. I spend many weekends in a lake running line and practicing my cave diving skills in 15-20 ffw. I ran line, practiced cylinder deployment and retrieval, no visibility line following, no mask line following, air shares, etc. While it's a different environment, it will improve your skills. And it doesn't damage the caves. How many divers take the time to do dives just focused on skills?
Nothing I ever saw in OW prepared me to exit through the cornflakes and keyhole without touching. I can see an argument for being able to pull it off in the chimney @ JB possibly (bigger). There are some cave specific situations that I damaged the cave while learning to deal with them.
 
Nothing I ever saw in OW prepared me to exit through the cornflakes and keyhole without touching. I can see an argument for being able to pull it off in the chimney @ JB possibly (bigger). There are some cave specific situations that I damaged the cave while learning to deal with them.

Go left :wink:
 
While the damage in front of caves makes me ill and I agree with Rob and Kelly, I don't mind that as bad as I do the scars farther back. Seems to me too many zero to hero scooter cowboys out there that have to see the back half of a cave before they know how to dive the first thousand feet. I would rather quit diving than see HITW look like JB.
 
The same thing applies to rebreather divers. I had a recent experience with a rebreather teamate who was frequently contacting the floor in his effort to avoid contacting the ceiling. He missed the obvious issues - 1) you need the SA to know where you all your body parts and kit are at in relation to the cave and 2) you need the buoyancy skils to stay between floor and ceiling wthout contacting either - but he was primarily concerned with not damaging the hoses or connections on top of his rebreather and was choosing to stay extra low even if contacting the floor was an issue. I understand that a rebreather poses extra challenges in a cave, and it may call for some different approaches in managing loop volume and PO2 (and related cave specific rebreather training needs), but again, having a rebretaher is not an acceptable justification for contacting the cave. And in that regard, like sidemount diving, the responsibility for ensuring rebreathers don't magnify the conservation problems in caves will depend on the self discipline and self policing of rebreather divers and instructors.

I'll admit to this. Our first day of full CCR training outside the pool was in JB. We practiced skills in the circuit on the left hand side just past the cavern zone. My buoyancy sucked and I knew it. Part of it was the challenge of managing a third air compartment, part of it was distraction from the extra task loading of unfamiliar skills and waiting for the "booms" from the instructor. Discussion of stuff like this is part of the debrief between my buddy and I after the dive.

I choose to stay slightly negative, not because I was concerned about the unit (meg is pretty robust) but because I didn't want to bang into the ceiling. Whenever I lost buoyancy I would "catch" myself by putting out one or two fingers and looking for a hard surface to push off of.

I was painfully aware of our shortcomings during the class and we both beat ourselves up over it because as long time cave divers we knew where the bar was. I did everything I could to move slowly and deliberately and try to minimize any impact I had on the cave. By the end of that first day, we had pretty much settled in and were diving "clean."

From time to time, s.hit happens, even to the best divers. The problem I think, comes from just accepting this and not making an effort to correct it. Whether that means more practice in OW, whether it means slowing down, or sticking to larger areas that afford more "cushion" its up to us to recognize and fix our shortcomings. My question to you, is although you say it's not acceptable, did you indeed accept it, or did you discuss ways to improve with him after the dive?

It's pretty much what Rob said earlier:

That's the wrong attitude. No amount of damage is acceptable. While it does occur, we shouldn't accept it. We should strive to become better divers and avoid it.
<snip>

The best we can do is post threads in hopes that already trained/certified cave divers recognize their skills are subpar and they take action to improve. Unfortunately, most egos are too inflated for them to recognize subpar skills. I came across 4 divers a couple of weeks ago that were scootering Twin and blew out most of the system. I was there with a cavern class and couldn't even enter the cavern for over half an hour after those guys exited. And they were heading back there as evidenced by the 2 scooters left in the cavern! I guarantee none of them thought their skills or techniques were subpar.

Maybe we need to post more videos and make more comments on how not to cave dive, like the one that got posted of the guy taking of his fins and walking on the ceiling at Vortex. Of course, the other edge to that blade, is that if we call attention to bad practices, the wrong people may get the wrong ideas and push for access restrictions.
 
I think we're in agreement. Yes, just being in the caves results in some change to it. Our bubbles change the ceiling, albeit over a very long period of time.
No where was this more apparent to me than when I dove the city in Bonne Terre Mines. Our bubbles are trouble for the cave system, and might be more significant for the long term health. While I can count bubble induced silt outs on a single hand, it's my opinion that they are abrasive and cause wear as they vent.

Let's face reality: caves are dynamic. They would be changing even if we never dove them and that's WHY we can dive them at all. I recall a time out near Staniel Caye, while night diving. I saw a nurse shark get really sharky and go after some critter under a coral head. Damn. That shark BROKE the coral head and it's tail smacked a barrel sponge off of it's base. I was going to have a talk with Mr Shark, but chickened out at the last moment. The same can be said about Cozumel... I heard people talk about all the damage divers were doing... until that hurricane parked over her for a week. Mother Nature did more damage in a week than all of the divers combined.

We need to figure out what is acceptable, what is unavoidable and how to go about keeping our caves looking good.
 
Let's face reality: caves are dynamic. They would be changing even if we never dove them and that's WHY we can dive them at all. I recall a time out near Staniel Caye, while night diving. I saw a nurse shark get really sharky and go after some critter under a coral head. Damn. That shark BROKE the coral head and it's tail smacked a barrel sponge off of it's base. I was going to have a talk with Mr Shark, but chickened out at the last moment. The same can be said about Cozumel... I heard people talk about all the damage divers were doing... until that hurricane parked over her for a week. Mother Nature did more damage in a week than all of the divers combined.

Those are all good points. The only problem I have is when people use such examples as excuses why they should act irresponsibly. "It's gonna get damaged anyway, so why should I care?"
 
Those are all good points. The only problem I have is when people use such examples as excuses why they should act irresponsibly. "It's gonna get damaged anyway, so why should I care?"
Is that how you took my post? (just checking)
 
https://xf2.scubaboard.com/community/forums/cave-diving.45/

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