W-T-F?? part II

[MXGratefulDiver]

I don't like the idea of sacrificial caves, but there are a couple that are just beat to death, with Peacock and Ginnie being obvious examples. The last two times (out of three) I was at Madison Blue, people complained of being hit with falling rock. Well duh! If you hit the ceiling enough, something's going to give.

Part of this has to do with using the appropriate tool for the job. Back mount in Madison is doable, but at a price to the cave. Most of that cave should be done side mount.

... the guys that were beating the crap out of Madison when we were there were on rebreathers ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[lamont]

It's possible to do a lights out exit without destroying the cave. All it takes is choosing where you do these drills carefully. If you choose passage where the line is in the middle (from top to bottom), contact with the cave will be minimal to none. Lost line drills work the same way. Choose a location to do these where contact with the cave will result in no evidence of anyone being there. I bet you can't figure out where I do my lost line drills just by going past the area.

How do you force students to switch sides in lights-out exit drills?

EDIT: also, what about stage drops in cave 2 / full-cave? For that matter, what about stage drops done by cave 2 / full cave divers... I always try not to cause damage, but it does cause some. Just our own passage causes massive damage trails through the cave....

There probably is an acceptable amount of damage to the cave from a course, or else we just wouldn't cave dive at all...

 

[ucfdiver]

I'll preface this with a request that it doesn't get copied into a public area of this forum.

I just ran across this and it reminded me of the discussion on approaching divers doing stupid things, such as diving beyond their skill level. Perhaps more disturbing is instructors that don't demand more of their students, or themselves.

Should we condone sacrificial caves? Or support the harder stance and demand more? Or is there just nothing that can be done against the Good Ole' Boy Network?

Condone? No.

Do something about? Good luck. I think it would take getting all the instructors off the boards to add at least some verification process to the training. I've brought my suggestions to 2 board members of one agency and it's yet to get discussed. I've had conversations with dive buddies about bringing it up as a group at a meeting to show more support.

Part of this has to do with using the appropriate tool for the job. Back mount in Madison is doable, but at a price to the cave. Most of that cave should be done side mount.

We must be thinking of a different Madison Blue.

These are comments that you really don't want to make. This is how caves get closed down,or so limited,that it might as well be closed.

I agree, but aside from a few (you, Bill Rotella, FW come to mind first) people, everyone on the boards have some financial interest in training. The sad part is, I bet you know exactly who we're talking about teaching optima courses and allowing students to rape the cave. I've had 4 people PM me, all 4 got the name correct.

It's possible to do a lights out exit without destroying the cave. All it takes is choosing where you do these drills carefully. If you choose passage where the line is in the middle (from top to bottom), contact with the cave will be minimal to none. Lost line drills work the same way. Choose a location to do these where contact with the cave will result in no evidence of anyone being there. I bet you can't figure out where I do my lost line drills just by going past the area.

The gallery used to be perfect for this. Unfortunately, people complained about students having to *gasp* run a primary up the wall, so we moved the line to the floor to allow sloppy skills.

How do you force students to switch sides in lights-out exit drills?

EDIT: also, what about stage drops in cave 2 / full-cave? For that matter, what about stage drops done by cave 2 / full cave divers... I always try not to cause damage, but it does cause some. Just our own passage causes massive damage trails through the cave....

There probably is an acceptable amount of damage to the cave from a course, or else we just wouldn't cave dive at all...

Insulation Rooms are an excellent example of this in FL. People drop their scooters/stages in the clay (on mainline) when the jump line is tied high up and wouldn't cause any damage to the ceiling. Too lazy to swim a scooter 10ft.

 

[The Chairman]

That could be one piece of the puzzle, but don't you think it should start with having the proper skills first? Someone with poor skills in sidemount just manages to cause damage further into the system than someone in backmount can get.

John, skills should be primary and the bar set high in any class. But doing back mount in an area where there is JUST enough room, just doesn't make sense. I was the designated buddy on a NAUI cave 1 class that finished up in Madison. I feel my buoyancy and trim are fairly good, but I was embarrassed by how many times I bumped the ceiling. Fast forward 8 months later and I did the same in side mount with very little (almost no) contact. The next week I was along with another Cave 1 class (different instructor) and was required to use back mount. I'm a big guy. Back mounted doubles and I do not belong there at the same time. It's a big ass round peg in a tiny rectangular slot.

 

[Cave Diver]

Back mounted doubles and I do not belong there at the same time. It's a big ass round peg in a tiny rectangular slot.

Did you voice this concern with the instructor?

 

[ucfdiver]

Did you voice this concern with the instructor?

I'm not 100% sure it's who I think it is, but...I think the training director for this instructor was contacted by another agency instructor when he posted photos of a basic cave course being taught in conjunction with adv nitrox/deco.

Response was something along the lines of "We don't know for sure it was basic through us or agency ___".

The instructor has also been contacted about a c1 grad who had major issues diving with someone not too far out of class in Double Lines, and admitted the student was passed with subpar skills.

again, if it's who I think it is.

 

[LiteHedded]

if everyone knows the name of this optima instructor (we all do), then why the secrecy? the agencies don't care so why bother covering up for him?

 

[The Chairman]

In the first incidence, I was told to expect a tight fit. We missed the jump to the Godzilla room and it got very tight rubbing both tummy and tank. The instructor said during the debriefing "not THAT tight".

During the third dive there, I was happy to see the student turn the dive before it got tight, cuz I was going to!

Some instructors don't mind forcing their way through tight spots. I'm a cave tourist and not an explorer. I want to leave no trace and so I avoid tight fits.

Now the caves in the Sea of Cortez are quite different. It's hard to harm granite.

 

[The Chairman]

I'm not 100% sure it's who I think it is

Please, let's just say "NO" to idle speculation. It's just not warranted.

 

[UCFKnightDiver]

I don't like the idea of sacrificial caves, but there are a couple that are just beat to death, with Peacock and Ginnie being obvious examples. The last two times (out of three) I was at Madison Blue, people complained of being hit with falling rock. Well duh! If you hit the ceiling enough, something's going to give.

Part of this has to do with using the appropriate tool for the job. Back mount in Madison is doable, but at a price to the cave. Most of that cave should be done side mount.

Hmm, I've dove Madison in backmount, and though I've only dove it mainline, it seemed plenty big to me to be easily doable in backmount. I didn't hit the ceiling.