visual inspection on tanks

[Doc Harry]

My biggest beef with the tank inspection agency courses is that I just don't think they are long enough to allow someone with no previous experience to learn to reliably inspect tanks.

I felt rather inadequate when I started inspecting cylinders, for that very reason. There were numerous occasions when I had to take a cylinder to an experienced inspector for a second opinion. I rememer seeing a crack in the cylinder threads of a brand-new 6061 cylinder and taking it to a more experienced inspector for a second opinion. It was not a crack, just a piece of hair.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the tank inspection agencies, though. I mean, I could not reliably diagnose and treat a patient right out medical school, even though I was an M.D. But, with some good OJT (on the job training), I have since learned.

Likewise with cylinder inspections. "A man has got to know his limitations." When you get out of school, its time for some OJT, just like anything else.

 

[duckbill]

by routine maintaince i mean

removing valve to look for rust and aluminum oxide

You aren't likely to find both in the same tank

I have some tanks that I have visualled by a dive shop so I can get fills when I travel. I have others that I check out myself. I pull the valve and look inside. No rust, good to go. Just a hint of light, even surface rust, good to go. Heavier surface rust or pitting, then I'll consult the "experts".

So far, I have never seen any rust in my tanks, and do you know why? I never suck them dry in the water, and my whip is always dry. I change the dessicants religiously. I know my tanks like no one else could, and I take better care of them than most shops would because they are mine and I care. I've seen way too many dive shops do scary stuff to other people's equipment and spout pure ignorance for me to feel comfortable assuming they know what they are doing.

so to get back to the actual question, do you think it is ok to inspecft and maintain your tanks with no formal training like many, if not most, dive shops do?

Fixed it for you.

 

[duckbill]

I trust myself more than anyone else and I have been inspecting my own tanks for 45+ years and still have the tanks I was inspecting 45 years ago so I must be doing something right.

you have been doing it for a long time and you do your own, but would you trust someone who didnt know what they were doing? and would you want to fill that tank and dive it? and i do agree with you capitan, i trust what i do more than anyone else. but i would have a hard time trusting someone with no clue as to what to look for or how to inspect the tank

Are you changing the question?
Are we still talking about maintaining one's own tanks, or are we now discussing visualling someone elses tanks

And, besides, why would you ask Captain "would you trust someone who didnt know what they were doing? and would you want to fill that tank and dive it?" when he already said

I trust myself more than anyone else

?

 

[Gilldiver]

I felt rather inadequate when I started inspecting cylinders, for that very reason. There were numerous occasions when I had to take a cylinder to an experienced inspector for a second opinion. I rememer seeing a crack in the cylinder threads of a brand-new 6061 cylinder and taking it to a more experienced inspector for a second opinion. It was not a crack, just a piece of hair.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the tank inspection agencies, though. I mean, I could not reliably diagnose and treat a patient right out medical school, even though I was an M.D. But, with some good OJT (on the job training), I have since learned.

Likewise with cylinder inspections. "A man has got to know his limitations." When you get out of school, its time for some OJT, just like anything else.

I come from Aerospace NDI background. Eddy Current testing takes at least 40 hours classroom, OJT, and practical/written testing before you can get a Level I cert. And a Level I can not accept or reject product, they can only run the tests for a Level II or III to do the acceptance/rejection. So put that against your afternoon training class.

As for the visual eddy testers, we think of them as toys as they only look at the threaded area and will tell you nothing about the radius just below the threads. There is also the problem of telling tool marks from cracks.

But if this was aerospace, we would be using a medium sensitivity post emulsified penetrant (Zyglo) and doing a Black Light test. But that is too much work as you would then need to wash the tank out afterward.

 

[ScubaRich]

The problem with VIPs is, The first time you screw the valve back on and fill the tank it isn't worth bupkis! That sticker only says, " last time I looked everything was ok!"

 

[Davidstealey3]

duckbill,

the part of my reply you posted was to the guy that said he did his own, and his answer is yes. i didnt try to change the question just give the rest of them something to think about. so my original question is still the same. and you are right, if everyone did care for their tanks like you say you do it would not be a problem. but there are too many people who cry and complain when you pull stickers off of very used and abused tanks, or start removing chipping paint to look for damage or creapageof rust or aluminum oxide. just a part of being the person doing the job and owners not knoing why we do it.

as far as the rust and aluminum oxide statement, i was generalizing with out having to put steel or aluminum in every question. yes i know you shouldnt find them both in the same tank ( unless it was a training class and it was put in there on purpose ).

i just started this as a debate for everyone, and am not trying to justify the fact that untrained people should not be doing this. if you look at the history of diving many things were being done before they had to be certified. if it wasnt for them we might not be where we are today. so thank you to all the divers who went into caves and experimented with the mixed gases to educate the rest of us.

i did not try to upset people or make enemies, or point fingers and tell you dont do this, just dont think the newbies that get on here and read this should think it is ok to just start taking the tank apart.

as doc henry stated the class is just a step in the right direction and you should have someone there to confirm or deny your thoughts. and gilldivers is right, just cause he can do a level one test it takes someone with more education to interpet the readings. NDT is a wonderful field and takes a while to get profecient at it. i have a level one rating in dye pen and mag particle testing, but havent used it in three years and by no means considered myself worthy of qualifing a piece i test, cause i would probaly do it wrong after so long.

anyway i would like to thank all of you for posting to this thread and and hope noone holds anything against me. like i said this was just a question and a debate for people to state their feelings toward this subject. i will stand by my belef that you should at least be shown by someone what to do and how to do it if you are not going to take the course.

 

[muddiver]

Ok, now I see your point. And no, a newbie should not be trying to vis their, or anyone elses, cylinder.

Personally I dumped all of my aluminum 80's because I don't have an eddy current tester to test the threads. As a ASNT Level II I could dye pen them, but that would be messy. I perfer to use steel and just do a visual.

I also feel that I am qualified to use the CGA or other standards, with out being certified, to evaluate the integraty of a compressed gas cylinder based on my commercial diving, NDT and engineering back ground. It doesn't mean that I would be bold enough to hang myself out over the liabiity pit by inspecting someone elses cylinder, but I think that as the sole user of my cylinders I should be able to qualify my cylinders. Whether an LDS will accept that, I don't know, but I would hope so because I don't have, nor do I wish to setup, a cylinder fill station in my garage.

And yes PADI does have a VIP training program. I had a cylinder with one of their stickers on it that I purchased used at one of the LDS I frequent.

 

[mongodives]

as noted by one person already, all a VCI sticker states is the tank was good at the particular moment it was inspected. The very next day it could be flooded, exposed to extreme temps, fall off the back of a truck etc.

The PSI course I took, it was pointed out that tank failures are not common, and those that do fail, fail do to some of the above mentioned things but primarily fill station operator error. It was also stated several times that PSI is the only inspection cert recognized by the CGA and trial lawyers. (don't know if thats true, but that was a whole hour worth of class)

The only place I know of that requires proof of "inspector training" to get VCI stickers is PSI. For the people who live in litigous societies, do what your insurance will cover.

 

[Davidstealey3]

there is another one but i dont know the name of that agency. when i was talking on the phone with someone from PSI the other day, they told me what the other organazation was, but i cant remember.

but for the most part this was a good topic of discussion. everyone should keep in mind how many new divers have the ability to read all of what gets posted, and for the most part i dont think advising anyone to just crack open their tank for the hell of it to see if something got in it is good. if you want to walk someone through the process send them a PM about it, not just post it here.

and for people to say the vip course is worthless ( worthless might not be the word of choice here, dont want to get yelled at for my choice of words ) its not. dont belittle people, or say i am not trained and can still do what they can. there is a lot of things out there you can do if you try, you can lay bricks and not be a brick layer, work on cars and not be a mechanic, cook food like a chef and not of gone to a culinary arts school, but you take stabs at the people who do this for a living saying you are as good if not better then them. they pride themself at the job they do and aim to do it well. you could be as good as them, but would you do it as fast, or without much waste, or use the same amount of materials.

if we just stuck to answering the question that is asked and not get off topic i think this would be a lot better place for questions and answers. we are all intitled to our opnion and as the saying goes "opinions are like a**holes, we all have one" lets just try to answer what is asked, and leave it at that.

if you think someone has given an incorect answer or statement, back it up with some proof to help the indivdual to understand the answer he should be listenig to.

thanks again to all who participated in this discussion

 

[Lone Wolf]

I strongly promote the PSI / PCI courses, but IMHO, you are not doing them a favor… they did not create any standards… that is very wrong! The standards that they teach are supposed to come from the Compress Gas Association.

Please, if you so feel like educating anyone, at least get your basic facts straight.

I don't believe Dave is trying to educate anyone, so much as he is stating an opinion on this subject. In my opinion, there are a number of people who are capable of maintaining their on tanks. There are also a number of people who could never maintain their own tanks no matter what classes they took or what certs they had. Unless I know you personally I have no idea which category you might fall into!! So, due to safety issues, liability issues, we do live in the US. I would not fill a tank with anything but air, that did not have a current VIP from a facility I could verify. Is it possible that this facility has an incompetent tech, certainly. But, I will play the odds, few facilities will deliberately place themselves in this sort of situation concerning liability. I have witnessed individuals placing new VIP stickers on their tanks with no intention of ever removing the valves. Does this happen in stores, I'm sure it does, but I believe this occurence is rare when compared with individuals. If you wish to stay in business, you try to do things right and avoid liability, not to mention taking care of your customers!! If you know your shop is cutting corners on VIPs, how can you trust them to work on your regs. Your life rests in these peoples hands, choose carefully!!