Virginian diver dead at 190 feet - Roaring River State Park, Missouri

[formernuke]

You don't see how a something from a video about a HF analysis is used as an example in a discussion about HF?
Nevermind

Almost all dive accidents are human error. So by your logic we should have a 50 page HF discussion on every one instead of focusing on the error of that case.

 

[lostsheep]

If only

yeah, red herring

 

[PirateFoxy]

Almost all dive accidents are human error. So by your logic we should have a 50 page HF discussion on every one instead of focusing on the error of that case.

Not 50 pages, no, but the HF angle should be considered. How an error was able to happen is very relevant to preventing it from happening again. But in many incidents it's not going to take multiple pages to look at the full situation - this thread is only getting as long as it is because there seems to be some confusion about what HF is looking at/addressing in the first place.

 

[formernuke]

Not 50 pages, no, but the HF angle should be considered. How an error was able to happen is very relevant to preventing it from happening again. But in many incidents it's not going to take multiple pages to look at the full situation - this thread is only getting as long as it is because there seems to be some confusion about what HF is looking at/addressing in the first place.

You've been asked this before and did not answer. What is your dive experience?

 

[PirateFoxy]

If you think you can judge anything that happened in these incidents without any knowlege or experience in diving, let alone cave or ccr diving, you're way off. You have no idea what students can or can't do from behind your computer.
This HF thing is not new. I read plenty of his stuff and and will continue to do so. I have messaged back and forth with him about one case were I disagreed with some of his take. He is a normal dude you can talk to and disagree with, not need to put HF or him on a pedestal. HF is a model and not hard science or the bibel, reasonable people (that know something about diving) can disagree on how to apply it in a given case.
It's essentially the same concept you learn about in rescue class with some stuff added put in fancier language, it's not very complicated.

And yet you seem to still be missing the key concept of Human Factors and why one looks at it.

I have not made definitive statements about what happened in any of these incidents that's relevant to the details of diving. I have given *example* questions that are not intended to be exhaustive, merely illustrative of the *type* of questions that might be asked when evaluating the human factors involved in an incident. I have made if-then statements about things, where "if" is a critical part of the statement.

You seem very fixed in your beliefs on what is the proper way to evaluate an accident and what is and is not relevant information, and you don't think things like how students feel is relevant. Significant amounts of study in safety-critical areas would disagree with you strenuously. But I guess since aircraft accident investigators aren't divers, nothing they've learned can possibly apply, right?

 

[PirateFoxy]

You've been asked this before and did not answer. What is your dive experience?

What does dive experience have to do with anything? With any accident or incident, in any field or activity, human factors are one of a number of points that should be considered when trying to determine what can be learned from/about the incident. If people are involved in the accident or incident, human factors may be involved, because you get human factors when you have humans doing things. It's pretty simple, and is not unique in any way to diving.

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

Discussion of specific Human Factors as they relate to THIS accident is welcome. Further debate as to whether HF is a relevant concern should be conducted in its own thread.
Personal questions regarding the qualifications of any member should be handled by DM.

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[Nitrogenius]

Almost all dive accidents are human error. So by your logic we should have a 50 page HF discussion on every one instead of focusing on the error of that case.

human error is not the same as human factor..
To your logic you could make the argument that almost any accident anywhere can be brought down to human error.
The topic about human factor is related to trying to mitigate human error in a way and with procedures that are actually sustainably adhered to, so what can be done to avoid complacency, what can be done to achieve that humans are acting differently from best practises etc. etc.
And that is in my opinion very, very relevant to the way this project was conducted so far and led to the fatality.
Of course one can conclude very fast. Diver made a mistake and hence resulted in a fatal accident. Analysis completed: Learning effect zero
Of course one can conclude easily: Best practises have not been adhered to, folks should adhere to best practises. Analysis completed. Nothing to learn here.
The whole HF approach will actually start here and try to analyse what creates a situation like that in the first place.
But this discussion is showing for a large part how far away the industry seems to be to even the first step: Acknowledging that human factors to play a significant role here (which is not "diver made a human error")

 

[Nitrogenius]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

Discussion of specific Human Factors as they relate to THIS accident is welcome. Further debate as to whether HF is a relevant concern should be conducted in its own thread.
Personal questions regarding the qualifications of any member should be handled by DM.

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In my opinion though the debate whether HF is a relevant concern as such is exactly the debate on whether or not and as such how it relates to this accident as well.
Hard to seperate those two as they are heavily intertwined, at least in my view of the whole topic HF

 

[lermontov]

You've been asked this before and did not answer. What is your dive experience?

whats with the antagonism-? isnt a "just culture" one where anyone can voice a concern regardless of experience ? or do you think only those with suitable experience can have an opinion?