Valve/manifold procedures "in the real world"

[rainman_02]

And that is where other parts of the training and philosophy come into play, such as: three minors or one major.

 

[Tortuga68]

Actually, we don't know this and in fact assume that the the most likely thing to happen will be what most likely happens..........(is that a tautology?) If you were just making a joke then we can both chuckle, however if you really plan to base your troubleshooting on this then I would suggest that you have an issue.

It wasn't a joke, or not intended to be anyway. You're correct that, by definition, the thing most likely to happen is what will most likely happen. My point was that it isn't always what will happen

What I was advocating is diagnosing the problem and fixing it, rather than trying to correct the most common problem, which in some cases won't be the actual problem

Maybe we're saying the same things different ways. Anyway the thread was most informative for me

 

[MonkSeal]

What I was advocating is diagnosing the problem and fixing it, rather than trying to correct the most common problem, which in some cases won't be the actual problem.

To be clear, isolating first will not help you diagnosing, so you don't advocate diagnosing. No one here who understands anything advocates closing right first because it's most common problem. We suggest diagnosing first (by observing bubbles) then closing post that we think is causing the problem. The probability is bigger that this is right post but it does not mean that we'll imediatelly go to close right. If we think the left one is bubbling we'll close left. If first closing does not solve the problem, we'll isolate. Then we'll evaluate situation and progress with diagnosing and resolving.

 

[Tortuga68]

To be clear, isolating first will not help you diagnosing, so you don't advocate diagnosing

The sequence I was taught is:

1. Isolate

2. Bubble check (visual/hands)

3. SPG check (dropping/stable)

4. Diagnosis based on 2 & 3

5. Post shutdown as required by diagnosis

Can you do SPG diagnosis without isolating first?

How am I not advocating diagnosis?

You obviously don't agree with the sequence, that's okay - maybe you'll convince me to change my procedure to a superior one, if so great & TIA

 

[johnkendall]

The sequence I was taught is:

1. Isolate

2. Bubble check (visual/hands)

3. SPG check (dropping/stable)

4. Diagnosis based on 2 & 3

5. Post shutdown as required by diagnosis

Can you do SPG diagnosis without isolating first?

How am I not advocating diagnosis?

You obviously don't agree with the sequence, that's okay - maybe you'll convince me to change my procedure to a superior one, if so great & TIA

Most issues will not drop the SPG noticeably over a short period of time. By isolating first regardless of the problem you are losing gas needlessly. By closing the valve you thing the problem is at, you will save gas most of the time. On the few rare occasions that you get it wrong, the next thing to do is isolate and get the team to assist with diagnosis (they are much better at it than you, 'cos they can see the problems)

HTH

John

 

[MonkSeal]

The sequence I was taught is:

1. Isolate

2. Bubble check (visual/hands)

3. SPG check (dropping/stable)

4. Diagnosis based on 2 & 3

5. Post shutdown as required by diagnosis

Can you do SPG diagnosis without isolating first?

How am I not advocating diagnosis?

You obviously don't agree with the sequence, that's okay - maybe you'll convince me to change my procedure to a superior one, if so great & TIA

I'm not trying to convice anybody I'm trying to explain reasoning. And I believe it has been explained several times in this thread not to mention other discussions on same subject.

Lest just analyze your and our 1st step.

Isolate first - zero diagnostics, you're still loosing gas probably without reason (because you could've stopped this by proper reaction - closing leaking post).

Diagnose and close probably leaking post - 1st step of diagnostics is completed (side is identified), leaking can be stopped (it's stopped if reg is the problem).

I can continue, but it has already been explained.

At the end, when you have freeflow, obviously you'll close freeflowing post, you will not isolate first. Our sequence is always consistent in thinking, diagnosing and acting.

 

[Tortuga68]

Thanks John & MS for your posts

Isolate first - zero diagnostics

At the risk of repeating myself - what about SPG diagnosis? As John & others kindly explained, it'll only be useful if there is a large leak from the left post, so maybe it's not worthwhile in most situations - but that's not the same as 'zero diagnostics'

I sense you're getting a little frustrated at repeating yourself, as am I (although you're kind enough to keep replying, thanks). But I've mentioned SPG diagnosis after isolation a number of times and am yet to read a response that specifically addresses why it's considered by some to be non diagnostic

 

[grazie42]

Most issues will not drop the SPG noticeably over a short period of time. By isolating first regardless of the problem you are losing gas needlessly. By closing the valve you thing the problem is at, you will save gas most of the time. On the few rare occasions that you get it wrong, the next thing to do is isolate and get the team to assist with diagnosis (they are much better at it than you, 'cos they can see the problems)

HTH

John

But in the OPs hypothetical there is no team.

So "most of the time" you end up with more gas than you need (more than 1/3ds and a team with additional gas around you) and on "rare occassions" you die (less than 1/3, alone and you don´t make it out)...

Whenever Im not sure (like willing to bet my life on it or with reserves in form of team or time/gas from my turn-around) I would isolate first but thats not "the dir answer"...

 

[Tortuga68]

I'm not trying to convice anybody I'm trying to explain reasoning

If you do the latter you'll probably acheive the former at the same time

 

[MonkSeal]

At the risk of repeating myself - what about SPG diagnosis? As John & others kindly explained, it'll only be useful if there is a large leak from the left post, so maybe it's not worthwhile in most situations - but that's not the same as 'zero diagnostics'

Ok, let me rephrase this. Your decision to isolate is based on 'zero diagnostics'. You isolate and then try to diagnose the problem. My logic is oposit: I first try to diagnose and then I close (probably) affected side.