UTD Decompression profile study results published

[Storker]

in all objective fairness, there is no "scientific" verification as of yet either of @Dr Simon Mitchell 's recommendation of Buhlmann GF 50/80 as a baseline "improvement" on the implications of NEDU DeepStops Study,

No, and that's why Simon doesn't recommend it, either.

When asked what he's currently using, that's the answer he gives. But he's also been very thorough explaining that he doesn't have sufficient data to recommend a certain set of gradient factors. It seems as if this wasn't enough for some.

 

[Dr Simon Mitchell]

No, and that's why Simon doesn't recommend it, either.

When asked what he's currently using, that's the answer he gives. But he's also been very thorough explaining that he doesn't have sufficient data to recommend a certain set of gradient factors.

Thank you Storker, that is correct.

Kev, I'm sure you did not intend to mis-characterize my response to questions about what gradient factors I use, but by calling it a "recommendation" you risk doing that. When asked about this issue I give an honest answer, and I think I have always been careful to contextualize my choice as a personal perception of a sensible response to the current evidence. But I don't "recommend" it, or portray it as proven optimal practice. I always try to be careful to admit that we do not know where "optimal" lies, but on the basis of a growing body of evidence it is probably not with stops as deep as recommended by some algorithms.

Simon M

 

[Kevrumbo]

Thank you Storker, that is correct.

Kev, I'm sure you did not intend to mis-characterize my response to questions about what gradient factors I use, but by calling it a "recommendation" you risk doing that. When asked about this issue I give an honest answer, and I think I have always been careful to contextualize my choice as a personal perception of a sensible response to the current evidence. But I don't "recommend" it, or portray it as proven optimal practice. I always try to be careful to admit that we do not know where "optimal" lies, but on the basis of a growing body of evidence it is probably not with stops as deep as recommended by some algorithms.

Simon M

There is no mis-characterization and I resent your insinuation of such intent Simon, based on some misconstrued rhetoric from @Storker . Really Simon, what legitimate semantic characterization would you rather prefer? Calling it "Loose Suggestion" instead?

Your "recommendation" @Dr Simon Mitchell was as I understood it to be in the course of your lecture & presentation during the Bikini Atoll Trip in 2013: a practical opinion to de-emphasize DeepStops; and when asked what GF's to try out in light of the NEDU Study, you answered with 40/70 or 50/80 as a conservative starting base. You even "recommended" purchasing and using a Shearwater Petrel Computer to facilitate using these GF's.

But apologies if I did not make that context perfectly clear such that you had to qualify -or worse equivocate- your remarks as above.

 

[Patoux01]

Oh come on, now you know better what he said than himself.

 

[Storker]

some misconstrued rhetoric from @Storker

Sure. I must certainly have deliberately misconstrued

@Dr Simon Mitchell 's recommendation of Buhlmann GF 50/80

(emphasis mine)

when I answered

Simon doesn't recommend it

Keep moving those goalposts.

 

[Dan_P]

Well in all objective fairness, there is no "scientific" verification as of yet either of @Dr Simon Mitchell 's recommendation of Buhlmann GF 50/80 as a baseline "improvement" on the implications of NEDU DeepStops Study, but is a reasonable conservative solution to start with.

Fair game to say.

At the end of the day, looking inwards and at my own diving, I must accept that I simply don't hold all the answers, same as anyone else in diving.
I've said it before - I'm not claiming that Ratio Deco has the most optimal gas, decompression or results at ALL depths and combinations of the above. And even if it did, that's not why I personally choose to use it anyway.

I personally opt for RD because I feel it's enabling. I can dive my drysuit in icewater and it floods while I've got a decompression obligation and make the best of the situation without my only guide (computer) locking up on me. Personally, I like that.
I can travel across the world and dive with people who don't speak any of the same languages as myself, and go dive with them, because we're on the same page. I like that, too.
I also like that I can do any type of diving, anywhere, on the same bottom timer that I bought almost ten years ago, and that there's a consistency in the methodology and gear that I, my dive buddies and my students all use.

Are there drawbacks? Sure, it would seem, at some depths. I'm ok with that. Pros and cons, and for me, the pros outweigh the cons.

Personally, I don't feel that the essence of strengths and benefits in RD is at the heart of the conversation by addressing the decompression alone, paradoxal as it may seem.

Maybe all of the above applies to me but not the next guy. That's okay, we'll both enjoy our diving I hope.

 

[Kevrumbo]

Sure. I must certainly have deliberately misconstruedL. . ..

Oh come on, now you know better what he said than himself.

Better veracity than you. . .

 

[Kevrumbo]

Fair game to say.

At the end of the day, looking inwards and at my own diving, I must accept that I simply don't hold all the answers, same as anyone else in diving.
I've said it before - I'm not claiming that Ratio Deco has the most optimal gas, decompression or results at ALL depths and combinations of the above. And even if it did, that's not why I personally choose to use it anyway.

I personally opt for RD because I feel it's enabling. I can dive my drysuit in icewater and it floods while I've got a decompression obligation and make the best of the situation without my only guide (computer) locking up on me. Personally, I like that.
I can travel across the world and dive with people who don't speak any of the same languages as myself, and go dive with them, because we're on the same page. I like that, too.
I also like that I can do any type of diving, anywhere, on the same bottom timer that I bought almost ten years ago, and that there's a consistency in the methodology and gear that I, my dive buddies and my students all use.

Are there drawbacks? Sure, it would seem, at some depths. I'm ok with that. Pros and cons, and for me, the pros outweigh the cons.

Personally, I don't feel that the essence of strengths and benefits in RD is at the heart of the conversation by addressing the decompression alone, paradoxal as it may seem.

Maybe all of the above applies to me but not the next guy. That's okay, we'll both enjoy our diving I hope.

FWIW again, RD with classic DeepStops tracks the Petrel Computer running GF's 20/85 fairly well, if you still subscribe to protecting the Fast Tissues from supersaturation. The problem is though, you might have to change GF Hi realtime during the dive at the 6m O2 Stop to 70 or 60 to ensure further offgassing and lower the surfacing supersaturation state of the Slow Tissues. So unless you don't care about very high O2 CNS exposure, using classic RD turns out to be not as efficient as it once was touted to be. . .

 

[Dr Simon Mitchell]

There is no mis-characterization and I resent your insinuation of such intent Simon

Kev, I insinuated no intent on your part whatsoever.... quite the opposite in fact. This is what I said:

Kev, I'm sure you did not intend to mis-characterize my response to questions about what gradient factors I use

My simple point is that there is a difference between saying what I do when asked, and recommending what I do. I agree it is subtle, but it is more than just semantics. I have always tried to be careful not to couch what I do as a recommendation.

I hope you can see the difference.

Simon M

 

[Kevrumbo]

My simple point is that there is a difference between saying what I do when asked, and recommending what I do. I agree it is subtle, but it is more than just semantics. I have always tried to be careful not to couch what I do as a recommendation.

I hope you can see the difference.

Simon M

Prerogative of "Personal Preference", and not a "Recommendation" per se. . .