Unacceptable Instructor Behaviors...

[Olariuas]

Which agencies have their own lines of products and promote the use of their gears during training? Im thinking about GUE and Halcyon and UTD most DIR agencies maybe even PADI too

I only bought masks and fins with a local shop.. cause need to fit correctly..

 

[Colliam7]

What really offends me is when a dive shop requires their instructors to only use gear made by their preferred supplier. That kind of implied endorsement is insidious.

Well, it is insidious. I have been fortunate to work in three shops where it was never a requirement. I actually end up generally using gear in the primary brand lines of the shop, of my own volition. So, that I don't have a particular problem with. I use Apeks regs and Zeagle regs. All three shops have been Apeks dealers, only one was Zeagle. Not a big deal.

Now, if someone told me I had to wear split fins, or a weight-integrated BCD, or a camo westuit (stretching for examples, here) because that's what they wanted to 'push', or only aluminum cylinders, etc. I wouldn't be able to work there. If a shop told me what John was told, that I had to buy a specific set of gear - a scuba uniform - and I would have to tell students it is what I use in my personal diving, I couldn't work there.

Maybe, I have subliminally selected where I work on the basis of what product lines they carry.

I recently bought a FFM. I originally trained several years ago on an OTS Guardian, and had planned to buy one. But, I had a former DM student who just completed his IE, and a MSDT prep course. One of his specialties is FFM, and I volunteered to be a student to help him get some certs. He used an Ocean Reef, which I also liked when we did the class. When I decided to buy a mask, I looked at what the shop I am now affiliated with carries, and it was Ocean Reef, so I bought a Predator. Had they been an OTS dealer I would have gone with the Guardian.

Frankly, I think I need to look for a shop that is a H dealer. I like (and own) a lot of their gear, but I also like employee discounts.

 

[boulderjohn]

Which agencies have their own lines of products and promote the use of their gears during training? Im thinking about GUE and Halcyon and UTD most DIR agencies maybe even PADI too

I only bought masks and fins with a local shop.. cause need to fit correctly..

GUE ownership also owns Halcyon, but technically they are different companies. Halcyon owns some other brands, including Santi. UTD obviously owns UTD gear sales. SSI is owned by Head, the company that owns Mares. When that merger happened, many of the Mares employees suddenly became SSI employees. (I talked with one who was struggling to move from his desk job with Mares to his new technical instruction position with SSI. He was working hard to refresh his skills.) I don't know of any relationship between PADI and a specific manufacturer.

 

[Colliam7]

Which agencies have their own lines of products and promote the use of their gears during training? Im thinking about GUE and Halcyon and UTD most DIR agencies maybe even PADI too

PADI does not. In fact, they generally go out of their way in their manuals, promotional materials, videos, etc. to show an egalitarian display of brands, so as to avoid any semblance of manufacturer favoritism.

GUE, for sure, even though, as John points out, they are different companies. I don't recall ever seeing a GUE Instructor in anything other than H. But, as I said, above, I like H gear, so it doesn't particularly bother me.

There is a corporate relationship between Mares and SSI (owned by the same company) but I don't think that trickles down to undue pressure on SSI shops, at least I haven't heard that from SSI owners I know.

 

[Wookie]

GUE ownership also owns Halcyon, but technically they are different companies. Halcyon owns some other brands, including Santi. UTD obviously owns UTD gear sales. SSI is owned by Head, the company that owns Mares. When that merger happened, many of the Mares employees suddenly became SSI employees. (I talked with one who was struggling to move from his desk job with Mares to his new technical instruction position with SSI. He was working hard to refresh his skills.) I don't know of any relationship between PADI and a specific manufacturer.

Well, to be fair, the merger of publishing houses and gear peddlers is only beginning with SSI/Mares/Head. With PADI for sale most days, I could easily see Johnson Outdoors buying PADI or Mandarinfish holdings buying Huish....

I'm sure the big money is looking on with interest.

 

[Olariuas]

So instructors from those agencies might promote the sell of "their gear" ? Even if I am interested in GUE I had no clue why everyone was Halcyon and now that you speak about Santi for their drysuits... I remember some DUI drysuits too.

 

[lowviz]

For the newbies watching this thread: IMHO, it is fine to go with whatever gear your shop foists upon you.

All name brand dive gear is 'good' (actually excellent) for anything you are going to attempt. Are you 'being taken for a ride'? Of course you are. You've already put your own well-being in the hands of someone else with respect to training. Why is gear an issue?

Your choice, be a loyal shop customer or buy discount and strike out on your own. Either is valid, but going with the flow makes things easy in the beginning when a lot of things look hard. Very few stay with this sport. Those who do will slowly develop their own tastes and preferences with respect to gear. I gave away almost all of my original gear as my taste developed.

Slow and steady, take it as it comes...

 

[The Chairman]

So instructors from those agencies might promote the sell of "their gear" ?

If they sell it, sure, why not? Selling gear is not a crime. Making money is not a crime. Neither is unethical. I'm not sure why this offends anyone. When I worked in automotive, I sold and installed parts from my parts room. Was that a conflict of interest? I don't think so, not at all. You walk into a shop full of El Tigre Dive Gear to take a class. Why would you think they would promote El Guapo Dive Gear?

 

[Dizzi Lizzi]

Unacceptable instructor behavior. I won’t write yelling, belittling etc because that is just unacceptable behavior in general. But here is what I walked away from:
An instructor who:
· Was more concerned with how many people get cert cards from him rather than ensuring they are trained at least to the minimum standards of the agency
· Did not assess his students skills and knowledge base—this can just be a conversation at the very least.
· Had crowded classes with not enough staff to ensure safety
· Did not observe students to make the determination if they should get said card.
· Was unaware of problems during the dive because of the overcrowded chaotic situation. Problems such as OOA, uncontrolled ascent ( OOA diver + buddy) that causes both to hit heads on cross beams of oil rig. Uncontrolled descent of overweighted diver first time in dry suit who could not seem to remember how to use bc. This diver required someone else to swim quickly down to halt the decent and bring her to the surface. There was A LOT of heavy breathing on this boat within the 1st 10 min of the dive when these 4 divers returned. Multiple lost buddies.
· Does not do a post dive review with students. Sure…I did everything you said…just give me my card.
· Gives dive plans such as “swim around and notice the hazards” for a wreck dive.
· Loses his buddy, then tells them they need to “keep up” and “why didn’t you just follow my bubbles”. Buddy teamed up with another pair and came aboard a full 10 min before instructor.
Instructor lost his buddy but found his limit of scallops.

A Student caveat: You are the most important key to learning how to Scuba Dive. Ultimately, your safety is up to you. If you don't feel comfortable with your instructor, the onus is on you to change that. Talk with them or fire them, just make sure you can trust and learn from them. Sure, it might cost you time and money, but it won't cause you injury or possibly your life. Take this seriously as your health and life depend on your choice of an instructor.

Yep. I was offered private inst after my complaint, but I determined my best course of action was get another instructor. Thanks Pete @The Chairman , it was great training with you! I feel I deserve my AOW, and not just because I paid for it.

That is the essence of diver training. I have admired this quote so long that I can't even remember where it came from or how it evolved.

"The great majority of the cumulative knowledge presented in diving classes at all levels resulted from accidents that scared the hell out of, injured, or killed someone. Thanks to all the pioneers the preceded me, living or not."​

.

I do admit I learned a lot that day. It got scarier and scarier as I reviewed all that happened and realized that we could easily have had a tragedy that day instead of incidents.

 

[boulderjohn]

Selling one specific type of scuba gear or for that matter, a specific brand of anything to the exclusion of other brands might be unethical, regardless of how many people do it.

You have almost no choice but to sell specific brands or certain families of brands when you are a dive shop. When you sign a contract with a company, you are expected to sell a certain amount per year. If you are a huge dealer, you can meet those minimums with a variety of competing products. If you are a smaller operator, it would put you out of business.

I first realized that when the first shop I was with started selling tech gear. Most of the companies selling tech gear required a pretty high initial purchase and a guarantee of a certain amount of sales per year. Several had minimums so high that there was no way our shop could meet them, so selling that brand was out of the question.

Here in Colorado, we have almost no local diving deeper than 35 feet, so there is almost no need for nitrox. As a tech instructor, I needed to have a trimix analyzer, which ran in the neighborhood of $900 with most dealers. The shop where I worked offered to give it to me at their cost, and I was copied on the email exchange with the manufacturer. The price for the shop depended upon how many products they sold per year--the more products from that manufacturer, the lower the price. If the shop guaranteed that they would sell 5 nitrox analyzers per year, they would sell the trimix analyzer at a dealer price that was about $50 more than I could buy it from an online store, paying the advertised retail price. There was no way the shop would sell 5 analyzers in a year, so we did not do it, and I bought it online.