Two fatalities in Monterey

[MXGratefulDiver]

If they're low-pressure tanks, they're SUPPOSED to have 2400 psi in them ... that's the service pressure of the tank.

What that means to a diver is that their pressure gauge will go down slightly more slowly than an AL80 filled to its service pressure of 3000, since you're getting more air per PSI with each breath.

In other words, if you're using an AL80, you're using up approximately 2.6 cubic feet of air for every 100 psi you breathe. If you're using an LP80, you're using up approximately 3.3 cubic feet of air for every 100 psi you breathe.

So for every 100 psi drop you see on an AL80, you'll see a corresponding drop of 78 psi using the exact same amount of air in an LP80.

So, in fact, if they were paying attention, they'd have more time to realize they were getting low on air using the LP cylinders than they would using a standard aluminum 80 cylinder ... since at the proverbial 500 psi they'd have nearly 17CF of air remaining in the LP cylinder and only about 13CF remaining in the AL cylinder.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Warren_L]

I don't know if this has been seen yet, but here's a bit of an update, dated April 14 (yesterday).

Investigation into deaths of divers in Monterey Bay continues - MontereyHerald.com :

 

[Lobzilla]

If they're low-pressure tanks, they're SUPPOSED to have 2400 psi in them ... that's the service pressure of the tank.

What that means to a diver is that their pressure gauge will go down slightly more slowly than an AL80 filled to its service pressure of 3000, since you're getting more air per PSI with each breath.

In other words, if you're using an AL80, you're using up approximately 2.6 cubic feet of air for every 100 psi you breathe. If you're using an LP80, you're using up approximately 3.3 cubic feet of air for every 100 psi you breathe.

So for every 100 psi drop you see on an AL80, you'll see a corresponding drop of 78 psi using the exact same amount of air in an LP80.

So, in fact, if they were paying attention, they'd have more time to realize they were getting low on air using the LP cylinders than they would using a standard aluminum 80 cylinder ... since at the proverbial 500 psi they'd have nearly 17CF of air remaining in the LP cylinder and only about 13CF remaining in the AL cylinder.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Thanks for explaining that very clearly. (Maybe I should add that Bob gets the 2.6cuft per 100psi from dividing the rated volume of 77cuft for an AL80 by the rated pressure of 3000psi. Some agencies called this 'tank factor')

This is a good opportunity to make a plug for Bob's excellent article on Gas Management.

Everyone who sticks the head under water and relies on the next breath coming out of a regulator needs to understand this. Really understand it - and apply it.

 

[openmindOW]

Do you know what agency these kids were trained under? I do ... and I'm well familiar with the standards of that agency.

That would be very helpful information.

What agency?

I know who runs the program under which they were trained ... I have no idea who was on board the vessel that day ...

Thank you. What can you tell us about that program?

 

[openmindOW]

I think they were in Monterey for their 5th dive for O/W on Friday. The diving on Saturday was post O/W cert.

Thank you for trying to gather facts.

How confident are you of the above statement?

The store that booked the trip is a NAUI store.

Are you sure?

Does anyone know the depth at which the divers were found?

Does anyone know if the divers were using computers?

 

[ChadK]

This was posted on BA Divers Yahoo group for Bay Area California divers by Ralph. It is concerning the two deaths in Monterey. I think it is a great post and merits a good reading as it could be remembered in the future by someone and could make them think twice about their dive, a dive that could have killed them:

_________________________________________________________________________
> Here's a comment I received from a physician buddy:

> ... "Negative Pressure Pulmonary Edema" ....

Find a new doctor.

What you describe (bleeding from the mouth without external trauma) is the
tragically common signature of a massive lung over expansion injury. It's
caused by holding your breath while ascending rapidly. Reread the first 20
pages of your PADI Open Water manual. They make this point about 6
different ways, yet nobody remembers when it really matters.... A panicked
diver will spit out their regulator and bolt for the surface. It's just what
they do. (If you are twice their size and right there in their face you
*might* be able to stop them, but a high school football player high on
adrenaline? Not a chance... he was dead as soon as his brain went into
neutral.)

Knowing how he died does little to explain why he died.

If you want to prevent it, you have to stop them from getting panicked in
the first place. Instead of adding a 7th way of explaining exactly how
underwater panic can kill you, PADI (et al) should teach people the fine art
of calling a dive while they are still alive.

Calling a dive is easy when it's obvious (I forgot my regulator, or there's
a tsunami coming) but the ones that could go either way are really tough.

Here are a few things that I've found make it a little easier:

1: Never tell yourself (or others) "I'm going diving tomorrow/next week/etc"
Instead just say "I'm going to try to dive..." A good diver is continuously
reassessing conditions to decide whether to continue with the dive plan or
modify it. (BTW your "prevailing conditions" include your assessment of
your buddy's skills/attitude and your ability to communicate with them under
water.) I imagine these kids from Reno had been planning and looking
forward to this trip for months. If there is too much build up and
anticipation, it becomes impossible to disappoint yourself, even if your
life depends on it.

2: Remember that the definition of "recreational diver" is anyone who dives
for the fun of it. When you need to make a judgment call, don't ask
yourself "Can I do this dive?" (That's red meat for your ego to jump up
and answer "Hell Yeah!") Instead ask yourself, "Does this look like fun?"
If you can replace a stressful hassle with a couple of relaxing hours on the
water by not diving, why on earth wouldn't you?

3: If you are heading to Point Lobos, chances are you are going to have a
fantastic dive, but pack walking shoes and some binoculars just in case. If
it doesn't work out, go tide pooling or bird watching on the west end.
There is always the aquarium. Your save-a-dive kit should include a Plan B
so you'll still have a good time even if the diving doesn't work out that
day.

4: If you are out on a boat, there is absolutely no shame in sitting out a
dive. You'll see the old salts scrambling to get in as soon as the anchor
drops, but they are just trying to be polite. (They are probably good on
air, or diving nitrox, and don't want to keep the captain waiting at the end
of the dive)

Newer divers tend to have slightly shorter dives, so they have no reason at
all to rush off the boat. Take your time and don't jump until you and your
buddy are good and ready! If it doesn't quite come together, just don't go.
None of the other customers will even know and the boat crew will be happy
to have someone to talk too. If you mention your reasons for not diving
with them, chances are their free advice will be at least as valuable as
your expensive C-card. Take some mental notes so you'll be ready next time.

Seriously, be prepared to have 10 people ask you "how was your dive" There
is no need to explain. Usually I just say 'it was very relaxing' but
sometimes I wet my hair and mess with them. "Oh man, we had a whale swim by
on our safety stop!" (I can usually get the boat crew to back me up
Really, it's okay. You are still a diver. You get to eat the cookies.

5: In 6 months you will not even remember the dives you called. But in 15
years of diving and nearly 1000 dives logged, there are two dives I will
always remember -- not in a good way -- because I wish I had called them,
but didn't.

Of course, I don't mean to jump to conclusions about the particular causes
of the most recent accidents. I understand one diver was completely out of
air and the other was nearly out. It could have been something as basic as
forgetting to swap tanks, or swapping one 'empty' tank for another. (those
remaining 500 PSI are just enough to get you into trouble!)

I make it a habit to check my SPG twice at the start of the dive. The last
thing I do before I jump is spritz a little air from each reg, my dry suit
and BC inflator then, look at my SPG. If it is still reading full, I know
my valve is open.

I check it again at the end of the descent. By then the tank has cooled.
If I'm surprised by the drop in pressure it means I've got a leak somewhere
or I was breathing hard on the descent. (due to current, anxiety, being
deeper than I thought or whatever) That's a good decision point. Check
yourself & check your buddy. You can either correct any small problems,
abort safely, or confidently head out on a nice relaxing dive.

If everything looks good there, I really don't look at my SPG again for 15 -
30 minutes, but newer divers should look more frequently.

You can play a game where you try to guess what the SPG is going to say
before you look at it. If you guessed low, that's okay you were just being
cautious. But if you guessed high, slap yourself on the wrist because you
just caught yourself taking on more risk than you realized.. Over time, you
will train your mind to just know how much air you have at all times, just
like you know how to walk or which way is up without thinking about it.

That can come in really handy when you are task loaded. I've been in
situations where I'm looking for the anchor line, watching the compass and
trying not to lose my buddy in poor visibility. Suddenly a little voice in
the back of my head says 'Screw the anchor. You are low on air. Go up.' The
nearest kelp stand makes a great substitute anchor line!

We'll never know exactly what happened in the most recent accidents.
Fortunately, we don't need to. If you add up the logged dives of everyone
on BAdivers, I'm sure it's over a million dives. None of those were
perfect, though a few (Like Ken's dolphin experience) came close. Every
imperfect dive is trying to teach us something about how to be better &
safer divers. We need to listen and share what we learn.

It's tricky because diving has a strong culture of individual
responsibility. There is a fine line between sharing what you know and
telling other people what to do. They have to live (or not) with the
consequences of their actions, so you can't take responsibility away from
them even if you wanted to.

It's okay to give them something to think about though. That's just a gift,
with no warranty implied.

Always have a Plan B.

Dive when it makes sense.

There are dolphins out there.

- Ralph

 

[Thalassamania]

The insufficiency of agency standards for training students who will dive in more challenging environments than a tropical resort and the inability of many instructors to understand that such diving, Monterey being a perfect example, demands more than many agency's standards have to offer, may be at the crux of the matter. Meeting or even exceeding agency standards does not automatically define an adequate course or even provide a surefire defense.

 

[Scott L]

The insufficiency of agency standards for training students who will dive in more challenging environments than a tropical resort and the inability of many instructors to understand that such diving, Monterey being a perfect example, demands more than many agency's standards have to offer, may be at the crux of the matter. Meeting or even exceeding agency standards does not automatically define an adequate course.

+1

Considerable youth, inexperience, challenging conditions and too large a group IMO...

 

[openmindOW]

If the divers were OW certified and they met the minimum requirements set by their training agency, why would their training instructor(s) be responsible?

Warren, my friend, that's a very good question, and I'd be glad to answer.

But let me preface this with a caveat: What I am about to say does not in any way refer in specificity to the deaths of the two divers. I am making a general statement regarding training.

There are a lot of posts and Threads on SB about standards, etc. This is NOT a PADI bash; multiple agencies have training adequacy issues. But I will cite PADI as an EXAMPLE. (Disclosure: I'm a PADI Instructor.)

Under PADI standards, divers must demonstrate "mastery" of the skills; Instructors do the assessment on that. As a PADI Instructor, I have seen other Instructors rush students through the pool training. Indeed, I have seen Instructors who boast of being "fast" teachers.

PADI Instructors can be ethical and can take more time to train their students - provided their respective shops so permit that. There are very good PADI Instructors out there. And there are some that are, well, bad. Unfortunately, the profit motive can have the effect of incentivizing some shops and some Instructors to rush training.

Getting people comfortable in the water takes TIME. One Instructor with 6 students just cannot get good results with 6 hours of pool time.

And then there is the judgment issue. Sometimes it takes effort and individual attention to get young people to fully absorb the safety rules of SCUBA diving. You have to provide those "teachable moments" when the student is ready to learn.

So, the Instructor has the power to do either a good job or a bad "rushed" job.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I'll nominate this for "Post of the Thread" ... there's quite a few lessons in what Ralph had to say ... for those who choose to pay heed.

Remember ... only YOU are responsible for your safety ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

This was posted on BA Divers Yahoo group for Bay Area California divers by Ralph. It is concerning the two deaths in Monterey. I think it is a great post and merits a good reading as it could be remembered in the future by someone and could make them think twice about their dive, a dive that could have killed them:

_________________________________________________________________________
> Here's a comment I received from a physician buddy:

> ... "Negative Pressure Pulmonary Edema" ....

Find a new doctor.

What you describe (bleeding from the mouth without external trauma) is the
tragically common signature of a massive lung over expansion injury. It's
caused by holding your breath while ascending rapidly. Reread the first 20
pages of your PADI Open Water manual. They make this point about 6
different ways, yet nobody remembers when it really matters.... A panicked
diver will spit out their regulator and bolt for the surface. It's just what
they do. (If you are twice their size and right there in their face you
*might* be able to stop them, but a high school football player high on
adrenaline? Not a chance... he was dead as soon as his brain went into
neutral.)

Knowing how he died does little to explain why he died.

If you want to prevent it, you have to stop them from getting panicked in
the first place. Instead of adding a 7th way of explaining exactly how
underwater panic can kill you, PADI (et al) should teach people the fine art
of calling a dive while they are still alive.

Calling a dive is easy when it's obvious (I forgot my regulator, or there's
a tsunami coming) but the ones that could go either way are really tough.

Here are a few things that I've found make it a little easier:

1: Never tell yourself (or others) "I'm going diving tomorrow/next week/etc"
Instead just say "I'm going to try to dive..." A good diver is continuously
reassessing conditions to decide whether to continue with the dive plan or
modify it. (BTW your "prevailing conditions" include your assessment of
your buddy's skills/attitude and your ability to communicate with them under
water.) I imagine these kids from Reno had been planning and looking
forward to this trip for months. If there is too much build up and
anticipation, it becomes impossible to disappoint yourself, even if your
life depends on it.

2: Remember that the definition of "recreational diver" is anyone who dives
for the fun of it. When you need to make a judgment call, don't ask
yourself "Can I do this dive?" (That's red meat for your ego to jump up
and answer "Hell Yeah!") Instead ask yourself, "Does this look like fun?"
If you can replace a stressful hassle with a couple of relaxing hours on the
water by not diving, why on earth wouldn't you?

3: If you are heading to Point Lobos, chances are you are going to have a
fantastic dive, but pack walking shoes and some binoculars just in case. If
it doesn't work out, go tide pooling or bird watching on the west end.
There is always the aquarium. Your save-a-dive kit should include a Plan B
so you'll still have a good time even if the diving doesn't work out that
day.

4: If you are out on a boat, there is absolutely no shame in sitting out a
dive. You'll see the old salts scrambling to get in as soon as the anchor
drops, but they are just trying to be polite. (They are probably good on
air, or diving nitrox, and don't want to keep the captain waiting at the end
of the dive)

Newer divers tend to have slightly shorter dives, so they have no reason at
all to rush off the boat. Take your time and don't jump until you and your
buddy are good and ready! If it doesn't quite come together, just don't go.
None of the other customers will even know and the boat crew will be happy
to have someone to talk too. If you mention your reasons for not diving
with them, chances are their free advice will be at least as valuable as
your expensive C-card. Take some mental notes so you'll be ready next time.

Seriously, be prepared to have 10 people ask you "how was your dive" There
is no need to explain. Usually I just say 'it was very relaxing' but
sometimes I wet my hair and mess with them. "Oh man, we had a whale swim by
on our safety stop!" (I can usually get the boat crew to back me up
Really, it's okay. You are still a diver. You get to eat the cookies.

5: In 6 months you will not even remember the dives you called. But in 15
years of diving and nearly 1000 dives logged, there are two dives I will
always remember -- not in a good way -- because I wish I had called them,
but didn't.

Of course, I don't mean to jump to conclusions about the particular causes
of the most recent accidents. I understand one diver was completely out of
air and the other was nearly out. It could have been something as basic as
forgetting to swap tanks, or swapping one 'empty' tank for another. (those
remaining 500 PSI are just enough to get you into trouble!)

I make it a habit to check my SPG twice at the start of the dive. The last
thing I do before I jump is spritz a little air from each reg, my dry suit
and BC inflator then, look at my SPG. If it is still reading full, I know
my valve is open.

I check it again at the end of the descent. By then the tank has cooled.
If I'm surprised by the drop in pressure it means I've got a leak somewhere
or I was breathing hard on the descent. (due to current, anxiety, being
deeper than I thought or whatever) That's a good decision point. Check
yourself & check your buddy. You can either correct any small problems,
abort safely, or confidently head out on a nice relaxing dive.

If everything looks good there, I really don't look at my SPG again for 15 -
30 minutes, but newer divers should look more frequently.

You can play a game where you try to guess what the SPG is going to say
before you look at it. If you guessed low, that's okay you were just being
cautious. But if you guessed high, slap yourself on the wrist because you
just caught yourself taking on more risk than you realized.. Over time, you
will train your mind to just know how much air you have at all times, just
like you know how to walk or which way is up without thinking about it.

That can come in really handy when you are task loaded. I've been in
situations where I'm looking for the anchor line, watching the compass and
trying not to lose my buddy in poor visibility. Suddenly a little voice in
the back of my head says 'Screw the anchor. You are low on air. Go up.' The
nearest kelp stand makes a great substitute anchor line!

We'll never know exactly what happened in the most recent accidents.
Fortunately, we don't need to. If you add up the logged dives of everyone
on BAdivers, I'm sure it's over a million dives. None of those were
perfect, though a few (Like Ken's dolphin experience) came close. Every
imperfect dive is trying to teach us something about how to be better &
safer divers. We need to listen and share what we learn.

It's tricky because diving has a strong culture of individual
responsibility. There is a fine line between sharing what you know and
telling other people what to do. They have to live (or not) with the
consequences of their actions, so you can't take responsibility away from
them even if you wanted to.

It's okay to give them something to think about though. That's just a gift,
with no warranty implied.

Always have a Plan B.

Dive when it makes sense.

There are dolphins out there.

- Ralph