TSA got you down?

[iztok]

1st, every flight to US must go through their security following the same standards as in US, which is basically the same thing except for the personel who's doing it.

This is again not correct. Security in TLV is not even remotely close to one in US. (and I mean in a more secure manner in TLV vs. less secure in US)

 

[Mike Boswell]

Here is the fourth Amendment "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Kind of clever of the Founders to stick that "unreasonable" in there like that, wasn't it? I guess some people will always think it reaonable not to have to board an airplane with guys wearing C4 jock straps.

 

[vladimir]

Kind of clever of the Founders to stick that "unreasonable" in there like that, wasn't it? I guess some people will always think it reaonable not to have to board an airplane with guys wearing C4 jock straps.

These threads inevitably go around in circles. Let me point out for the third or fourth time that framing the question as a choice between being intrusively searched and getting killed, (or "flying with guys wearing C4 jock straps") is a false dichotomy. There are other choices.

As to what is reasonable, the law does narrow down what is reasonable, as I pointed out in this particularly perceptive post , 132 posts ago:

Yes, but not as much as you might think. I say "in general" to acknowledge the border search exception. There are guidelines for reasonableness set by the courts:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Whether a border search is reasonable depends on a judicial analysis that balances the intrusion into an individual’s legitimate privacy and dignity interests against the government’s legitimate interest in the subject of the search. In reviewing the reasonableness of border-searches under the Fourth Amendment, many courts have distinguished between "routine" and "nonroutine" searches. Customs may conduct "routine" searches without any level of suspicion, while "nonroutine" searches must be supported by "reasonable suspicion". Under this analysis, searches of a traveler's property, including luggage, briefcases, wallets, and other containers are "routine," while searches of a traveler's body, including strip, body cavity and involuntary x-ray searches, are considered "nonroutine."

I can go Wiki "reasonable suspicion" for you, but I'm going to guess it entails something more than just buying a plane ticket.

 

[tarponchik]

This is again not correct. Security in TLV is not even remotely close to one in US. (and I mean in a more secure manner in TLV vs. less secure in US)

I figured you were much impressed, but in fact we know nothing of the Israeli security efficiency and effectiveness. Meaning, we do not know what it costs in money and human labor per passenger, and since we do not know the same costs in US we can't compare. We also do not know how many bad guys with C4 they filtered out (most likely, zero), and since TSA filtered out nobody so far we are comparing zero with another zero. So I did not fly to Israel and know nothing; you did and still know nothing.

One thing that I do know is that they seem to rely more on profiling and individual judgement of the officers at the gates. Should US copy this? No, I do not think so.

 

[ekremer]

Kind of clever of the Founders to stick that "unreasonable" in there like that, wasn't it? I guess some people will always think it reaonable not to have to board an airplane with guys wearing C4 jock straps.

Thank you for NOT answering my question

How about you tell us, What could the TSA do to you that you would find as unreasonable? If it is nothing. If there is no limit. Then you need to re-think your citizenship. The word unreasonable means there is a line that is definable. If you think the sky is the limit, and there is nothing that is not reasonable then you believe the 4th amendment is pointless. If that is the case you have lost any sense of what being an American is about.

 

[ScubaSteve]

The word unreasonable means there is a line that is definable.

I do agree with you however any time you see that word used, it usually means that it is a dynamic term. It is open to interpretation as well as change. Therefore, it really is not definable. This is just my opinion and how I view that term.

 

[irishsquid]

un·rea·son·a·ble [uhn-ree-zuh-nuh-buh

l, -reez-nuh-]


–adjective 1. not reasonable or rational; acting at variance with or contrary to reason; not guided by reason or sound judgment; irrational: an unreasonable person.

2. not in accordance with practical realities, as attitude or behavior; inappropriate: His Bohemianism was an unreasonable way of life for one so rich.

3. excessive, immoderate, or exorbitant; unconscionable: an unreasonable price; unreasonable demands.

4. not having the faculty of reason.




Sounds to me TSA knows very well what it means. They along with Homeland Security have chosen to ignore it. IMHO

 

[ekremer]

I do agree with you however any time you see that word used, it usually means that it is a dynamic term. It is open to interpretation as well as change. Therefore, it really is not definable. This is just my opinion and how I view that term.

I agree, the term is defined by the courts, and the courts are influenced by the culture of the time. especially in this case with no previous cases to fall back on. That is why I posed the question to those that support the measure. Where do we draw the line, to you what is unreasonable?

I ask, because I feel that if we cannot draw a line, if it has become culturally acceptable to allow full reign, we need to look deep inside, figure out why, and really examine our rights as a people, and what they should mean.

To me. This has crossed the line. And the way it has been fed to us, is nothing but lies. Not only do they take pictures, and store them. But they can also store pictures of the subject pre-nudification...

100 Naked Citizens: 100 Leaked Body Scans | Threat Level | Wired.com


To me that is unreasonable. Between that and a feel up that goes way beyond a Terry search (the measure of reasonable searches for decades)

Terry stop - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[iztok]

I figured you were much impressed, but in fact we know nothing of the Israeli security efficiency and effectiveness. Meaning, we do not know what it costs in money and human labor per passenger, and since we do not know the same costs in US we can't compare. We also do not know how many bad guys with C4 they filtered out (most likely, zero), and since TSA filtered out nobody so far we are comparing zero with another zero. So I did not fly to Israel and know nothing; you did and still know nothing.

One thing that I do know is that they seem to rely more on profiling and individual judgement of the officers at the gates. Should US copy this? No, I do not think so.

Here is what we do know about security in Israel vs. TSA mockery:

1. Israeli agent failing to detect test runs (they get tested on a regular basis) loses his/her job on the spot.

2. TSA agents don't get fired for that.

3. People bring all sorts of things past TSA that we know of (Adam Savage story for example).

4. No such known incident for #3 when it comes to Israeli security.

 

[tyesai]

I still fail to see how it is the federal goverments job to provide security for private airlines. That to me is the first issue, all the other stuff is secondary.