Trying Tec

[Sas]

I'd take your post seriously, but anyone who lists PADI Boat Diver as a certification clearly doesn't take diving seriously.

How else would I know how to dive off a boat???

 

[Ste Wart]

How else would I know how to dive off a boat???

Walk to the back, when you hit the water, you're there.

 

[Sas]

Walk to the back, when you hit the water, you're there.

Damn now I wish I had not wasted my time and money doing that boat diver course: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ba...ting-c-cards-without-testing.html#post5978675

 

[Ste Wart]

Damn now I wish I had not wasted my time and money doing that boat diver course: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ba...ting-c-cards-without-testing.html#post5978675

Consider it a freebie, I could have charged $200 for that information.

 

[boulderjohn]

I am not an instructor so have no idea of the standards for Padi. I gleam from SB that the "no student fails" policy means the bar can be quite low to get a PP Bouyancy card in your wallet. Well, so what?

The idea that nobody fails does not mean everyone passes. The diver is supposed to work on the skill until it is done properly. "No failure" simply means there is no time limit and there is no limit on the number of allowed attempts. It does not mean anything goes.

Why would anyone shut the valves in a kneeling position. Its more difficult to do than in the horizontal trim as the valves are more difficult to reach.

The manual shows divers on their knees... so that's how most will do it.

I'd add a caveat to Wart's statement.... "Most of the WORST tech instructors I've met demo this on their knees,.."

I would like to shed some light on this topic that some might find interesting. Some of you know that several people active in this thread participated with me in writing an article for the last PADI professional journal related to instructing students other than on their knees. I had the job of revising the final draft with PADI and negotiating the content. It was illuminating. I did most of this consultation with the person whom I believe to be most responsible for setting up the new PADI tech program.

If you look at the article we wrote, you will see two approaches described. One is NEVER having students on their knees. That came from us. The other advocates introducing a skill on the knees and then transferring the skill to neutral quickly, even in the same training session. That part came from PADI, and, to repeat, it came from the guy I believe is responsible for the tech training. In our discussion, he said that teaching valve drills on the knees for the initial training (but then transitioning quickly) was even a part of tech training. I argued against it in my response, making some of the same arguments that appeared in this thread. I told him that when I was a struggling Intro to Tech student, the instructor demoed while in neutral trim, but I had trouble because I had not mastered the ability to stay in one place in trim. I therefore got into the pool by myself and did it without being neutral but while lying on my stomach so that I was in a natural swimming position. Once I got that down, I was able to transfer it to a neutral buoyancy situation. I pointed out that while on the knees, the valves will not be in the same place as they are while diving. (Our article made the same point in relation to the OW skill of regulator recovery.) I believe he saw the point. I will also point out that the UTD instructor who did that with me is now having ALL of his students start learning valve drills on their stomachs, not while neutral.

As for the issue of demonstrating in proper form but allowing the students to be less then perfect in their early attempts, that was also a part of our article. There is a picture in the article of an instructor (me) demoing mask replacement while in neutral trim. That part was also approved by the PADI representative.

When we submitted the article, I sent it to the training department at first. In my first chats with them, I pointed out (this came from Peter) that all the pictures and videos showed skills done on the knees, with no pictures or videos modeling proper technique while actually diving. Their response was an immediate recognition that this was a problem and a statement that they were immediately taking steps to remedy that in the next round of instructional materials.

Peter; don't take this the wrong way but you teach all your classes in a pool. Which is all very well and good. However of the several hundred OW courses I've taught less than 10 have been conducted in a pool. Most have been in the shallows off the beach, where you have to contend with such variable as surge, the odd turtle distracting the divers and occassionally a boat aiming for your dive float. If I had the chance to teach in a pool maybe I would consider trying to get all my students to Fin Pivot/ Hover for all skills. Until you have experience in these environments your point is moot.

Having worked with Peter on the instruction article and having read what he wrote in this thread, your interpretation of what he does is incorrect. Read what he wrote carefully. He does not start students hovering or in a perfect fin pivot. In fact, a perfect fin pivot is less than ideal for introducing early skills. Not only is the student a bit too buoyant to be comfortable, the student is too upright. Getting them off their knees primarily means getting them horizontal, and 45° is not horizontal. The point we made in the article is still true: people who have tried both techniques find that it is easier for students to learn skills when they are NOT on their knees. The only people I know who think otherwise have never tried to have students learn skills while horizontal.

 

[Peter Guy]

Thank you John.

The problem with what has become of this thread is, I believe, your last point:

The only people I know who think otherwise have never tried to have students learn skills while horizontal.

Regarding doing the "Discover Tec" PADI program "on the knees" -- here I'd say the problem is that the program really IS designed incorrectly and gets "the cart [valve drills] before the horse [buoyancy control]." It is highly unlikely that someone with only 10 dives could have any sort of "success" in doing a valve drill (no matter HOW it is done) while maintaining position. The problem is not with how the valve drill is taught -- the problem is in the decision to teach it.

 

[boulderjohn]

Thank you John.
Regarding doing the "Discover Tec" PADI program "on the knees" -- here I'd say the problem is that the program really IS designed incorrectly and gets "the cart [valve drills] before the horse [buoyancy control]." It is highly unlikely that someone with only 10 dives could have any sort of "success" in doing a valve drill (no matter HOW it is done) while maintaining position. The problem is with how the valve drill is taught -- the problem is in the decision to teach it.

I agree. I think it is only one example of how tech training in general has not always sorted out the correct sequence of teaching skills. For example, in my instruction, I was expected to hold my position in relation to teammates and an ascent line during deco stops while in trim before I was taught to do a back kick. I have told many a tech student to get the back kick down as early in the instruction as possible, even if the instructor doesn't teach it, because my own instruction would have been so, so much easier if I had had that skill early.

 

[Jax]

Wow, Bob, really?

Here I thought it was
1. Look at valve
2. Shut one leaking



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That's how it is at Tech 5 level , not that I know but I would make a wild guess

That's how it is in sidemount!

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Do they now make dry suit with dump valve on the heel

Actually, Apollo has made one for years with dump valves in the ankles ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Rhone Man]

How else would I know how to dive off a boat???

Reminds me of an old joke. Some tourists are watching the Caribbean divemaster and his guests do backwards rolls of the boat into the clear blue waters. After they come back up and are taking off their gear, one of the tourists asks the divemaster:

"Excuse me, but why do you guys roll backwards like that at the start of the dive?"

The divemaster smiles and explains patiently: "Because if you roll forwards, you end up back in the boat."