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[Aloha Joe]

It seems like the Quattros are good for long, slow, powerful kicks. I definitely got good propulsion with them with big kicks but it's exhausting after awhile. I get shin splints, too, and they hurt my shins. I'm sure I could work out to build strength/endurance, but this is a hobby for me so I choose not to do that. I also find them difficult to maneuver - with smaller fins (snorkel fins, Oceanic Accel) it seems like I can easily put my feet wherever I want them and start kicking, and I feel like I have accurate control. With the Quattros, moving my feet affects my body position (I know that's what's supposed to happen) and then acceleration is slow and requires a lot of energy.

I like the Oceanic Accel but have reservations based on some recommendations and them being smaller (I've only used them in a pool).

I guess trying to back up in split fins might suck, depending on how soft they are...

 

[tbone1004]

backing up and frog kicking sucks in all split fins. It's possible but quite annoying.
Split fins are also much less efficient.
Split fins are also much less maneuverable because you don't have as much control.

try doing a modified breast stroke/frog kick, especially with shin splints. The kick comes from your calves and is quite effective. I only flutter kick if I have to get somewhere fast

 

[Aloha Joe]

I was going to comment on the negative buoyancy, but I know they don't sink all that quickly so I didn't. I did notice it right away in my OW pool sessions though.

But then I realized I might already be 'foot heavy', so maybe I'm having to do extra work to keep my feet behind me? Maybe that's why I feel like my feet always end up out of place?

I put on rubber fins that I rented at Catalina and I sunk like a brick, feet first. I have a medium build but rather skinny legs and all my extra meat is around my core.

 

[Aloha Joe]

I was doing OK with the Quattros in calm water with a sort of frog kick. I struggled with them frog-kicking in swells/current, though.

 

[tbone1004]

@Aloha Joe
those are pretty neutral fins. If you are not holding a "skydiver" position with your knees bent, then you will go feet down. Moment arm is too big. This will be exacerbated by too much lead on the weight belt which you had based on the other thread you started.
If you struggled frog kicking in current with the quattros, you won't get anywhere in the split fins. The kick tempo has to be so much higher on the split fins that you will inevitably get your heart rate up which will increase you air consumption

 

[stuartv]

@Aloha Joe This is going to sound condescending and I really don't mean it that way. I mean this in a genuine and sincere way. Get somebody to work with you and sort out your trim and your frog kick - before you spend any money on more fins.

I have read too many good things about those Quattros. If you're not getting decent results with them, I really don't think you will help yourself with any new fins. Much less with splits.

 

[scubafanatic]

backing up and frog kicking sucks in all split fins. It's possible but quite annoying.
Split fins are also much less efficient.
Split fins are also much less maneuverable because you don't have as much control.

...more urban legends.

 

[Aloha Joe]

I don't take it that way at all. I'll be the first to admit I don't know proper finning technique - I just put my first pair of scuba fins on 3 weeks ago! But I'll also admit I'm stubborn, and found a nice pair of Atomic split fins for $40 on Craigslist I only paid $20 for my (used) Quattros so I'm OK with experimenting a little. Thanks @daduls for the reminder about used fins!

Honestly my hip has been jacked since a motorcycle accident in March. I have very little flexibility and it's really affecting my frog kicks. I like to frog kick when I swim (not dive) but right now I can't really do that effectively (PT and swimming have been helping and it finally stopped hurting last week). So I can't really put too much weight on frog kick performance, but my issue with the quattros is more about the drag they have when 'retracting' or whatever, after the kick. I know that's probably 90% technique, but the fin is a big floppy spoon and it's hard for me to get the blade out of the flow stream. on the 'up stroke'.

I did try finning in 'skydiver positon' and when I did it 'right' there was definitely a lot of power. But I have no technique and it was really hard to be consistent, let alone back up or maneuver.

 

[tbone1004]

...more urban legends.

If I'm spouting urban legends in your mind, then I will back it up with evidence.

I can't back up as fast in split fins, and I move a shorter distance per fin stroke. Ergo, less efficient
Frog kicking has the same effect, still less efficient.
Split fins in flutter kicks require much higher kick rate to move the same distance, they require less effort per kick cycle, but require much higher rate of kick to move. Ergo less effective and efficient.
Split fins are inherently floppy, and they are also usually very long. Very long fins with saggy fin tips are less maneuverable.

If they were more efficient and effective than blade fins at frog kicking, backing up, and maneuvering then you would see them in technical diving. They are not allowed in most technical diving because they are ineffective at anti-silting kicking techniques, and where allowed they are not used because they just don't work as well.
If they were more efficient and effective than blade fins at flutter kicking then the military rescue swimmers would use them. They don't, they use jet fin style fins because they are more effective at producing thrust *albeit requiring a good bit of leg strength to get there*
If they were more efficient and effective than blade fins at flutter kicking then the freedivers would use them. They don't, they use long blade fins that are the most efficient.

What did I miss?

Oh, science agrees. When the Apollo split fins were taped, they went farther per fin kick than the non-taped versions. This is a summary of the paper. Note that the taped Apollo's significantly outperformed the untaped versions. To @Aloha Joe this is particularly relevant to you since it also includes the Quattro's in the paper
Scientists Debunk Fin Claims: Undercurrent 01/2004
Full version
http://archive.rubicon-foundation.org/xmlui/bitstream/handle/123456789/3936/12841609.pdf

If you still think it is urban legend, then please feel free to prove me wrong

 

[tbone1004]

I don't take it that way at all. I'll be the first to admit I don't know proper finning technique - I just put my first pair of scuba fins on 3 weeks ago! But I'll also admit I'm stubborn, and found a nice pair of Atomic split fins for $40 on Craigslist I only paid $20 for my (used) Quattros so I'm OK with experimenting a little. Thanks @daduls for the reminder about used fins!

Honestly my hip has been jacked since a motorcycle accident in March. I have very little flexibility and it's really affecting my frog kicks. I like to frog kick when I swim (not dive) but right now I can't really do that effectively (PT and swimming have been helping and it finally stopped hurting last week). So I can't really put too much weight on frog kick performance, but my issue with the quattros is more about the drag they have when 'retracting' or whatever, after the kick. I know that's probably 90% technique, but the fin is a big floppy spoon and it's hard for me to get the blade out of the flow stream. on the 'up stroke'.

I did try finning in 'skydiver positon' and when I did it 'right' there was definitely a lot of power. But I have no technique and it was really hard to be consistent, let alone back up or maneuver.

hips shouldn't be used at all when kicking unless you are trying to go through a current for whatever reason. If you're normally just cruising around, then a modified breast stroke kick that is done from the knees and ankles is all you need. It is more efficient as well since you aren't engaging the big muscles in your legs. If you're a swimmer, think of it more like the whip kick than a full on breast stroke kick.
You should be generating thrust in both the up-stroke and the down-stroke when flutter kicking so you shouldn't be trying to get it "out of the way". If you think the Quattros are floppy spoons, you'll probably be sadly disappointed in the split fins which will be even floppier.

You will be most efficient with long, slow, wide flutter kicks. Think freedivers. Split fins don't work with this style of kick and are designed for short/rapid strokes.

Your frog kick should look like this unless you are going into current
video stolen from @Trace Malinowski

Some frog kicking in Mares Quattros for reference. They are the preferred fin by many *most?* of the Mexico cave divers because they are super maneuverable and light weight. Not as powerful as my Dive Rite XT's or some of the other fins we use in Florida where we have higher thrust requirements due to gear config and the higher flow in the faces, but very effective.