Triggers of Dive Accidents

[Thalassamania]

I don't know. Yes non-empty with open valve should rule out OOA, but empty does not define OOA.

 

[gcbryan]

Lynne, there is another way, a two tier system that is designed to fit both sets of needs. The problem is that many vested interests want to teach one of those tiers while pretending (for either marking reasons or ego) that it is the other. Actually this would make the Super-DSD tier less expensive than BOW is right now, and the little time now spent on tables (remember, there'd be one rule, no dives deeper than 60 feet or longer than 50 minutes) and buddy diving/auxiliary use (total dependence on the guide equipped with a long hose) could be applied to buoyancy and other things that really effect the fun of diving for these sorts of folks. If they really dig it, there would be an upgrade path.

Isn't the problem, as it relates to this thread, that the first tier would more or less be like what we have now. If most of the OOA incidents are people who would be taking the first tier classes then nothing would change...they would still be running OOA.

If most OOA incidents are people who dive infrequently and who have little training I'm not sure anything is ever going to change that short of not letting minimally trained infrequent divers dive.

 

[Thalassamania]

The difference would be that the first tier would be required to dive with leadership personnel.

 

[TSandM]

Well, and then we could get into a wrangle about whether dive leadership personnel are prepared to tend undertrained people . . . that one doesn't go anywhere, either.

 

[Agamemnon]

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[Thalassamania]

Well, and then we could get into a wrangle about whether dive leadership personnel are prepared to tend undertrained people . . . that one doesn't go anywhere, either.

We already assume (correctly or not) that dive leadership personnel are prepared to tend untrained people: DSD.

 

[Agamemnon]

comment removed

 

[gcbryan]

I think the present situation is better than requiring all infrequent divers to hire a DM for every vacation dive. Personally I think they should either just be allowed to dive as they are today or not be allowed to dive at all (without greater experience).

People should really be allowed to make decisions for themselves as they do for most other activities that don't directly impact someone else. I'm sure more people die floating down the river drunk on inner tubes in the summer than die diving. If you aren't smart enough to not go OOA then all the DM's in the world looking after you probably still won't change the statistics.

I don't know the answer to this question but...are diving deaths any higher than a minimal level that is going to occur in any activity between humans and water? You can define that minimal level any way you would like.

As with most any activity there is a level beyond which it's just prohibitive to make further improvements. How many swimmers die during the summer in calm lakes or how many hikers die on easy day trails. These simple activities would compare to easy vacation dives potentially.

Are we trying to get to zero when that's never going to happen? I understand the training isn't all that great but that's really another issue.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

Is there any info on why there is no trigger info in the other cases?

I don't know the reason. Don't forget that this is all info from DAN. They are getting written reports from the treating facility, or enforcement agency, that dealt with the death. If the info's not there in terms of the trigger, I don't know if they try to follow up or simply put it as "unknown".

Also, my sense of this is that this study I mentioned may have been done leading up to the DAN Fatalities Workshop and there simply may not have been time to follow up on the 500 cases with missing info.

If anyone would really like to dig deeper into this, you might try contacting Dick Vann or Petar Denoble at DAN as this study was done by them.

- Ken

 

[String]

Facing a situation under stress is nothing like doing it with the assistance of an instructor.

Which is exactly my point. IF it happens for real its not going to be a nice controlled ascent looking up, making a sound and just riding positive buoyancy. Its going to be click..no gas. wide eyes, look for buddy. there isnt one, panic, i need to be out of here now, fin like hell and maybe inflate to the surface MAYBE remembering to breathe out. A real life cesa is NOT going to be controlled.

My main reason for disliking it however is it teaches a student that its "OK" to bolt to the surface if you get a problem rather than problem solving on the bottom. Im also against buddy breathing being removed as believe a breathable source of gas is far better than bolt n pray.