Triggers of Dive Accidents

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For a large percentage of my dive career my Gas planning consisted of " be on the surface with 50 bar " It wasn't till I did my Bsac cross over that I learn't about Gas management. I have never had a OOG incident but I have spent an awful lot of time with lots of Air at a long Safety Stop. I am shocked at the lack of situational awareness of some divers. Monitoring your SPG is a basic skill.
 
Which is exactly my point. IF it happens for real its not going to be a nice controlled ascent looking up, making a sound and just riding positive buoyancy. Its going to be click..no gas. wide eyes, look for buddy. there isnt one, panic, i need to be out of here now, fin like hell and maybe inflate to the surface MAYBE remembering to breathe out. A real life cesa is NOT going to be controlled.

My main reason for disliking it however is it teaches a student that its "OK" to bolt to the surface if you get a problem rather than problem solving on the bottom. Im also against buddy breathing being removed as believe a breathable source of gas is far better than bolt n pray.

String..I think your suggestion about the OOA not being so easy a year or two after training, is what the agencies are afraid of.....I am not so sure I agree with them though. If you really practice this CESA enough, in the early days of your diving, it becomes a skill you don't lose...essentially like "riding a bike".

I remember the first time I decided to practice free ascents back in the late 70's....from around 90 feet....... heading up, my lungs felt like a factory making air....the higher I got, the more air kept coming...it was actually kind of cool, and kind of fun.
After you have done this several times, I think there should be almost a neuro-chemical change in your brain and your permanent memories....every time you do an ascent from then on..year after year, for decades, each ascent should remind you that air is being "manufactured" as you rise...There should be no need to "process" the thought of "how" to free ascend to the surface 20 years later...you should still have this, just like riding a bike..it should still be hard wired. If it is not, I don't think you ever really learned it in the first place....indicating original training was sadly inadequate.


On another note.....
Scubapro used to make a regulator back in the 80's that would have the 1st stage start really HONKING when the tank got low....This was a high flow potential reg, as Pat Frain used to use one of these with us back in the 90's for everything from 140 foot deep HOLE IN THE WALL dives to even deeper stuff like the wrecks around 220.

But a reg like this could be mandated for Beginning Open Water Divers, or any diver that dives infrequently. The training agencies could use this to prevent OOA...they could mandate proceedures for what to do if the reg starts honking....if you see your buddy with a reg that begins honking, you know he/she is in an emergency surface- now scenario, and you need to get them to the surface...some agencies would have the buddy with sufficient air, donate a long hose prior to OOA, and have both head to the surface....another might just suggest the one buddy help make sure the low on air buddy with honking reg actually gets up to the surface---directs behavior, assists bouyancy if needed, etc.
The honking leaves no doubt about the problem.
With the stats we are discussing in this thread, it would seem this old technology would be perfectly in line with the issue.

REgards,
DanV
 
Air integrated computers essentially accomplish the same with their visual and audio alarms and are in current production.
 
People seem to be failing to make a distinction between out of air and low on air. To me, low on air means it is starting to get hard to breath. Most divers, if they are neutrally bouyant and not totally out of breath should be able to easily and immediately rise to the surface, modulating the air in the BC and minimizing effort and kicking. They should be able to sip multiple breaths on the way up.

On the other hand, if a diver should be working on the bottom and be negatively buoyant, and they crawl under a ledge to catch a lobster or something and they rip off a LP hose or dislodge the first stage yoke from the tank (due to low pressure), they will be presented with a much. much more serious problem. ( A bad free-flow when the tank is low could also approximate this situation). The diver now has no way to inflate the BC, absolutely nothing to breath and some people like to dive with zero ditchable lead now. If they are at all out of breath during this incident, then kicking up 100 feet is NOT GOING TO BE EASY!

I find all this talk of 90 ft free ascents (e.g. Dan Volker) to be almost completely irrelevant. Who cares what he thinks he can do in an emergency? Most people can not freedive to 100 feet and most people can not kick up safely from 100 feet when negative with zero air. It needs to be taught because it is the last ditch answer (plus it should work from really shallow water) but it is NOT a practical solution to total loss of air at depth.

As I think about it further, I can relate it to my own experience. I am good on air to 200 feet when solo diving. I have done it many, many times with few problems, just like Dan can swim up from 90 feet without a regulator. I think it is no more logical to tell open water divers that it is OK to dive to 200 feet on air (because I can do it easily) than it is to tell these same divers that a free ascent from over 100 feet is a workable solution because Dan can do it when he practices the skill.

For me, redundancy below 60 feet is the only practical answer for a majority of the recreational divers. That is how I dive, almost always.
 
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I don't consider a free ascent bolting, more like a valuable skill that is far more reliable than swimming around looking for a buddy in bad visability.

find better buddies (and be a better buddy, too).
 
People seem to be failing to make a distinction between out of air and low on air. To me, low on air means it is starting to get hard to breath. Most divers, if they are neutrally bouyant and not totally out of breath should be able to easily and immediately rise to the surface, modulating the air in the BC and minimizing effort and kicking. They should be able to sip multiple breaths on the way up.

On the other hand, if a diver should be working on the bottom and be negatively buoyant, and they crawl under a ledge to catch a lobster or something and they rip off a LP hose or dislodge the first stage yoke from the tank (due to low pressure), they will be presented with a much. much more serious problem. ( A bad free-flow when the tank is low could also approximate this situation). The diver now has no way to inflate the BC, absolutely nothing to breath and some people like to dive with zero ditchable lead now. If they are at all out of breath during this incident, then kicking up 100 feet is NOT GOING TO BE EASY!

I find all this talk of 90 ft free ascents (e.g. Dan Volker) to be almost completely irrelevant. Who cares what he thinks he can do in an emergency? Most people can not freedive to 100 feet and most people can not kick up safely from 100 feet when negative with zero air. It needs to be taught because it is the last ditch answer (plus it should work from really shallow water) but it is NOT a practical solution to total loss of air at depth.

For me, redundancy below 60 feet is the only practical answer for a majority of the recreational divers. That is how I dive, almost always.

DD,
First, spearfisherman and lobster divers are NOT supposed to be part of the NOVICE OOA diver equation....if you or I are doing either one of these behaviors, we have many issues going on a new diver would be crazy to consider dealing with.
I would not want to see the novice diver negative on the bottom. They should be learning perfect trim and perfect bouyancy, so they are dead neutral at depth, and once they ascend 20 feet they are beginning to accelerate by increased lift from the bc.

As to an advanced hunter runing OOA at depths like 90 or 100 feet, if they have freedive skills ( good for any hunter to have), then this is still a non issue. For me, free ascending from 90 feet would not require even one breath, as the air in my lungs will have my lungs filling soon enough, and the surface is only a few seconds away....in perspective, I think it is fair to say that going off the bottom at 90 feet with no breath, is about equivalent to diving down 25 feet with a full breath from the surface. If you were in a full max effort, breathing at 100% of your ventilation potential, then it may be touch and go....but this means you have made so many big mistakes in a row, you would expect Darwin to be watching you in 1080P.

You would have your pony bottle and necklace reg. I would have a buddy, and we would both know the air issue ensuing--proactive measure should already be in play.


The beginner -- basic open water diver...should not be deeper than 60 feet. They should not be negative at depth. They should have practiced free ascending enough to know this is incredibly easy....I would compare a 60 foot free ascent on zero breaths to going from the surface down to maybe 12 feet deep on one full breath, and then back up of course....there is nothing to it, unless panic sets in from never having practiced the skill, and not knowing if you can reach the surface.


Here is a story from my early diving days, of a pretty serious OOA event :)

This occured back in 1976. I was on a Marine Research trip to Tobago with New England College. The professor leading the group, Taylor Loop, was an ex-navy frogman, in addition to having a PhD in Geology.
I was a freshman on this big research trip, allowed to be there because I had convinced Taylor that whenever one of his wimpy students could not get into a harsher environment, he could have me do the dirty work....He liked that, and let me on the trip( mostly seniors and grad students).
There was one area of of Tobago's Bucco Reef, where it would appear from a plane flying overhead, that the huge 30 foot waves went around in a complete circle, around an area the size of 6 or 7 football fields in diameter...anyone caught at the surface in these huge breaking waves, would be killed...there would be no chance of not being thrashed into the coral 45 feet below, and churned, and drowned.
Inside the huge waves, in the interior, was the richest ecosystem I have ever seen, to this day. Baitfish completely obscurred your vision, permanently inside this zone...the three converging currents which created this zone, brought in marine life that was the stuff of legends.
Taylor and one guy from the village, had been the first ever to get inside a few years earlier...he had picked his way through a maze of coral channels, ultimately staying protected from the huge churn, and made it inside, where he was amazed. There trip was shortlived, as a Great White greeted them inside the zone, the other guy ( Charles I think), fed it a spear, and they both left the way they had come. The island later had the GW netted and removed by helicopter, as they were panicked this GW would destroy their ideas for tourism on the island, and Taylor had explained the shark would have no reason to leave such a huge supply of food.

I was assigned to report on the coral species and fish species on the transect we could do, from outside to inside the zone.
My buddy had a pressure gauge, I had a j valve on my steel 72. Each of us used a single 2nd stage ( no one had a spare 2nd back then). No BC was used of course.

As we went in to the churning zone, maybe 60 yards long, we would swim fast till we saw the DARKNESS coming, this being the huge wave about to go overhead. Just before it reached us, we would grab on to the bottom( largest structure nearby, with gloves), and wait for the big surge to pass over, then swim like crazy till the next dark shadow appeared. It took us about 10 minutes to get in, at an average depth at the maze/channel bottom of 50-60 feet. Once inside, we were blown away by the IMPOSSIBLE VOLUME of fish all around us. While the main reefs of Tobago had massive fish volumes back in the late 70's, you can't imagine what this was like!!
My buddy was jotting notes down on a slate.., and then checked his guage( about 5 minutes after entrance into the interior)....he should have had lots of air, but apparently, he used up a huge amount getting in to the interior, and now down to around 400 psi, we knew he would run out before we could get clear of the churning zone..the Shadow Zone ...

We both looked at each other like OH Sh*& !!!! And immediately headed out the way we had come in. We knew he would run out...the only question was when. About 1/3 of the way back through the zone of shadows, he ran out. We were staying right next to each other for this obvious eventuality. Without any hesitation, I gave him my reg, he held the back of my tank, and his job became passing the reg back and forth between him and me....My job was navigating us through the maze, no longer stopping for the shadows and churn, just swimming fast and efficiently, and fending off coral boulders as the churn would shove us forward hard at each pass.
At about two thirds of the way out, my tank got to reserve, I pulled the j valve lever, and we knew we had no chance of making it all the way to the end of the shadow and churn area....we both knew when we did run out, we would have to swim horizontally until we cleared the shadows, and could then do a free ascent.
We made it to about 70 feet or so from the well defined end of churn and shadows..with the close to 250 foot visibility, this was easy to see, even from where we were in the coral channels.
As we ran out of air, neither of us had much of a breath, but both headed horizontal for the 70 feet, until we could see no churn....then began our free ascent....Oxygen partial pressure helped the traverse, so the 70 foot run was not all that hard....as we began slanting up near the end of the run, the slight exhale felt good, but I remember really wanting to be able to breathe again soon....we were still calm, but certainly worried at the same time--this was far beyond anything we had ever practiced or done before.
I remember the last 20 feet to the surface..My legs getting weak....remember, no BC, we were doing all the work with our legs to get to the surface. At about 1 half second before I hit the surface, I felt my legs completely turn to jello. Absolutely zero power left, they would not kick any more. My inertia carried me to the surface, where I spit the reg just before broaching, and got 1 breath before my head went under again. I was somehow able to get my mouth into the surface air again, maybe by hand swimming, I don't know..we were fairly neutral in bouyancy. Both my buddy and I struggled like this on the surface for at least a few minutes, before we actually had the strength to begin swimming and put our snorkels in our mouths. My legs felt like I had just run 50 miles, and our bodies were trashed. We began slowly swimming, and within another 5 minutes, we had recovered to feeling practically normal again, as the lactic acid which had filled our legs and bodies, converted to pyruvate, the oxygen debt was paid off, and we actually began to feel pretty good.

I learned.....not to do this dive again without very different gear....I never did get the chance to do this dive again.
I would do it today with a good buddy and high pressure 100. Doubles would be so much drag you could not handle the current and surge.

I was very happy that both my buddy and I had very good skills at free ascending. The buddy skills were something we just took for granted back in those days, because this was so easy for the people that I was diving with....maybe not so much for some of the wimpier research guys, but for Taylor and his team of really good research divers, this was easy....Taylor was a huge charicter, one deserving of many stories about his exploits :)

REgards,
DanV
 
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I do apply the same logic myself to some things though, for example i class CESA as a dangerous relic of a skill that teaches divers "its ok to bolt" when confronted by a problem.
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Free ascents or CESA (Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent) dangerous? I suppose that is true if you are clueless about basic diving physics and physiology. I don't consider a free ascent bolting, more like a valuable skill that is far more reliable than swimming around looking for a buddy in bad visability.

It's dangerous only because typical dive training only requires students to do it once, in simulated conditions, from relatively shallow depths, while an instructor is holding onto their BCD. After OW class, they're never required to do it again ... and almost nobody practices the skill.

IF it happens for real its not going to be a nice controlled ascent looking up, making a sound and just riding positive buoyancy. Its going to be click..no gas. wide eyes, look for buddy. there isnt one, panic, i need to be out of here now, fin like hell and maybe inflate to the surface MAYBE remembering to breathe out. A real life cesa is NOT going to be controlled.

My main reason for disliking it however is it teaches a student that its "OK" to bolt to the surface if you get a problem rather than problem solving on the bottom. Im also against buddy breathing being removed as believe a breathable source of gas is far better than bolt n pray.

As others have said repeatedly, if it happens for real it will not be done correctly because it is both not taught correctly and because it is not practiced sufficiently. It is not the fault of the skill--it is the fault of the instruction.

You have been using the term "bolt and pray" to describe this in threads for years, but I have also noted that when people challenge your assumptions and ask questions, you disappear from the thread without replying and don't mention the topic for a few months. So here are some questions.

1. As a PADI instructor, do you tell your students that CESA does not work, and do you use the term "Bolt and Pray" when you instruct? If so, you are almost guaranteeing that they will panic and take that potentially fatal bolt to the surface if they find themselves in that situation. So, my first question is this: what do you tell your students when they are taught this? Do you deliberately sabotage your instruction so that students will feel they have no recourse if they find themselves in that situation and panic?

2. What do you teach your students to do if they find themselves separated from a buddy while out of air? When you first started praising the BSAC no-CESA policy, I contacted BSAC and asked that same question. BSAC leadership told me that if that were to happen, a diver would, indeed, have to do a CESA. They just don't bother teaching students how to do it. So my next question is this: what do you think students should be taught to do when they are OOA with no buddy nearby?

3. You have said repeatedly that although you see CESA as a "dangerous relic" from the past that has been made obsolete by changes in diving gear (in other threads more than this). You said that if it happens in real life, students will forget training and panic. In contrast, you have said repeatedly that buddy breathing is not a dangerous relic made obsolete by changes in dive gear, and a diver should resort to buddy breathing instead of a CESA. The Edmonds study that Thal delights in citing was actually limited in its research to buddy breathing alone, as I recall. It found that it took 17 repetitions to teach this specific skill to proficiency, and even then the skill is quickly lost if not practiced regularly. I thus have two questions related to this:
  1. Why do you think students will learn and remember buddy breathing skills any more than they will learn and remember CESA?
  2. If a diver is OOA and without a buddy with a working alternative air source, do you teach them that they should not head for the surface (because it is too dangerous) but should instead swim about horizontally in hope of finding someone who does not have a working alternative air source so that they can begin buddy breathing?

I look forward to your responses.
 
Ok all new diver here. I didn't read all 14 pages so if this have been covered I apologize. I got my OW July if this year so a lot of the training is still fresh in my mind. (I did my AOW 2 weeks later). I was certified through PADI FYI. The computers, as far as my class went was just a device attached to my HP reg. Used mainly for the instructor to see how much air was in our tanks while he taught skills. IMHO I felt there was not enough discussed on how to read/use it. To me it was a bunch numbers on a hard to read screen (rental wear and tear). They did have us look at it and read off the psi from time to time but it was more for the instructor then for us I thought. It should have been stressed to check it and check over and over again till it became a habit like a nervous tick or biting your fingernails. You just do it without even thinking. 500 psi is an immediate tell your buddy it's time to slowly ascend and safety stop. It should be taught that you are responsible for knowing how much gas you have 1st and not depend on someone else to check for you. My .02 (FYI I have 17 logged dives)

On another note, Maybe there should be a "basic open water class" for the vacation diver. Your card would on certify you dive with a DM or something like that and only to 30fsw. No LDS air fills. Tank fills only at dive resort/charter boat that has group diving with a DM. The standard "open water class" would teach the more regular or frequent divers on the current standarsds with an emphasis on gas management etc.

Just a thought.
 
Ok all new diver here. I didn't read all 14 pages so if this have been covered I apologize. I got my OW July if this year so a lot of the training is still fresh in my mind. (I did my AOW 2 weeks later). I was certified through PADI FYI. The computers, as far as my class went was just a device attached to my HP reg. Used mainly for the instructor to see how much air was in our tanks while he taught skills. IMHO I felt there was not enough discussed on how to read/use it. To me it was a bunch numbers on a hard to read screen (rental wear and tear). They did have us look at it and read off the psi from time to time but it was more for the instructor then for us I thought. It should have been stressed to check it and check over and over again till it became a habit like a nervous tick or biting your fingernails. You just do it without even thinking. 500 psi is an immediate tell your buddy it's time to slowly ascend and safety stop. It should be taught that you are responsible for knowing how much gas you have 1st and not depend on someone else to check for you. My .02 (FYI I have 17 logged dives)

On another note, Maybe there should be a "basic open water class" for the vacation diver. Your card would on certify you dive with a DM or something like that and only to 30fsw. No LDS air fills. Tank fills only at dive resort/charter boat that has group diving with a DM. The standard "open water class" would teach the more regular or frequent divers on the current standarsds with an emphasis on gas management etc.

Just a thought.

If as a new diver, you find you or your buddy have neglected your air consumption so much that you suddenly see you or they are at 500 psi....you just ascend...no safety stop.

When you don't have air in reserve, a safety stop is a dangerous mistake.....the stop is more for longer durations than new divers are likely to experience, and your believing that it is as important, as your being able to breath, is just insane....

I don't blame you for this ( as a new diver) ..,.I blame the system for this.....of course, this whole thread is about looking for a better way.....

Regards,
DanV
 
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