Triggers of Dive Accidents

[Akimbo]

...I do apply the same logic myself to some things though, for example i class CESA as a dangerous relic of a skill that teaches divers "its ok to bolt" when confronted by a problem...

Free ascents or CESA (Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent) dangerous? I suppose that is true if you are clueless about basic diving physics and physiology. I don't consider a free ascent bolting, more like a valuable skill that is far more reliable than swimming around looking for a buddy in bad visability.

 

[danvolker]

Free ascents or CESA (Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent) dangerous? I suppose that is true if you are clueless about basic diving physics and physiology. I don't consider a free ascent bolting, more like a valuable skill that is far more reliable than swimming around looking for a buddy in bad visability.

I would like to know how in the world the industry is able to claim the emergency swimming ascent is so "dangerous". With proper medical screening, people who are asmatics or have equivalent exhalation issues, would either NOT be in the diving population, or would gain the right to dive with a "handicapped diver" categorization, with it's own strategies for OOA solutions--these being much more like what Ken's direction is running in (for this thread).

Healthy fit divers should be able to do the CESA , just like a commercial airline pilot SHOULD be able to do a beautiful landing in the ocean or a river if the NEED arises....

It is total bs that this is dangerous...unless you are planning on taking medically unfit divers through normal courses, and allowing NEVER-EVERS to be in your class.

Regards,
DanV

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I would like to know how in the world the industry is able to claim the emergency swimming ascent is so "dangerous". With proper medical screening, people who are asmatics or have equivalent exhalation issues, would either NOT be in the diving population, or would gain the right to dive with a "handicapped diver" categorization, with it's own strategies for OOA solutions--these being much more like what Ken's direction is running in (for this thread).

Healthy fit divers should be able to do the CESA , just like a commercial airline pilot SHOULD be able to do a beautiful landing in the ocean or a river if the NEED arises....

It is total bs that this is dangerous...unless you are planning on taking medically unfit divers through normal courses, and allowing NEVER-EVERS to be in your class.

Regards,
DanV

It's dangerous only because typical dive training only requires students to do it once, in simulated conditions, from relatively shallow depths, while an instructor is holding onto their BCD. After OW class, they're never required to do it again ... and almost nobody practices the skill.

That's not learning a skill ... that's being shown how to learn it. Skills are only learned through repeated application.

Facing a situation under stress is nothing like doing it with the assistance of an instructor. The assertion that OW divers are "trained" to do a CESA is a fallacy if one only follows the minimal requirements of their agency. It would be more accurate to say they've been shown how to do it ... once ... perhaps years ago.

Therefore, when a diver truly faces a crisis situation where the skill is required, they haven't really learned it ... and therefore they either forget how it's done, or it never enters their mind that they should do it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[danvolker]

It's dangerous only because typical dive training only requires students to do it once, in simulated conditions, from relatively shallow depths, while an instructor is holding onto their BCD. After OW class, they're never required to do it again ... and almost nobody practices the skill.

That's not learning a skill ... that's being shown how to learn it. Skills are only learned through repeated application.

Facing a situation under stress is nothing like doing it with the assistance of an instructor. The assertion that OW divers ar
e "trained" to do a CESA is a fallacy if one only follows the minimal requirements of their agency. It would be more accurate to say they've been shown how to do it ... once ... perhaps years ago.

Therefore, when a diver truly faces a crisis situation where the skill is required, they haven't really learned it ... and therefore they either forget how it's done, or it never enters their mind that they should do it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Exactly!!!!
They might as well give a rebreather certification to some student who dove next to a rebreather diver one time.
Regards
DanV

 

[ev780]

I was pretty irritated at this thread last night but it seems that the more scientific minds have taken over this morning.

Thass..... Thassalman.... Anyway that T guy with the long post made the best points yet as did Bob and others.

More knowledge and training....ALWAYS. Say it again, Knowledge and training of any kind is not a bad thing.

Lies, Damn lies, and Statistics~Benjamin Disraeli

 

[Peter Guy]

This has, once again, opened up the basic question of:

What is the goal of Basic Open Water Training instruction? And, more importantly, what is the goal of the Basic Open Water Student in taking the instruction?

One thing I am quite sure is that the goal of the Student is NOT to be one of Thal's highly trained research divers and thus his program is irrelevant in reality.

It is also true that most "divers" are not "hard core" divers like the people who have responded to this thread. As Bob (NWGratefulDiver) pointed out, even IF the student had been carefully trained, they aren't in the water and they certainly don't practice skills when they do get in the water. And if they do practice some skill, such as air sharing, they are likely to be scolded by the DM at the resort! (Note -- This has actually happened to me and we were scolded for sharing air. An instructor who happened to be on the dive continued by saying that the ONLY possible response to sharing air was a direct ascent -- but that instructor also believes Gas Management is "Tech Sh%t" and thinks a long hose is going to strangle you!)

I don't know what the possible solutions may be -- even Thal's training system will probably not be of much help to the recreational diver who hasn't been in the water for two (or more) years prior to his trip to Coz.

I don't think the real problem is the initial training -- it is the lack of continuous training and practice after the class is over.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

What is the goal of Basic Open Water Training instruction? And, more importantly, what is the goal of the Basic Open Water Student in taking the instruction?

Let's take this thought a step further: Suppose the basic Open Water was definitely without question the ONLY training someone was going to get. (And stats I've seen suggest that 80% of the folks who get an OW card never get anything else, so this has some basis in reality.)

So if you were only going to get ONE shot at training someone, how would this change what/how you teach?

I think if you look at some of the differences between training now and 30 years ago, in the past we tried to lump many, many things into the basic class. Nowadays, in the interest of teaching people "faster", we've separated things out and some of things we've eliminated from the basic classes have gone into "advanced" training.

Yes, you can make the argument that if you took ALL of the classes you might be getting exposed to the sasme level of information nand the same level of training as in 'the good old days". But the reality is that most people don't do all those classes.

(And just to be clear, for the poster who opined that I'm advocating less instruction and shorter classes, nbothing could be further from the truth of what I believe. I'm a big fan of more instruction before you hand them the initial card. I really do miss the days of the 12-week class, which is what I started teaching in 1978.)

- Ken

 

[danvolker]

This has, once again, opened up the basic question of:

What is the goal of Basic Open Water Training instruction? And, more importantly, what is the goal of the Basic Open Water Student in taking the instruction?

One thing I am quite sure is that the goal of the Student is NOT to be one of Thal's highly trained research divers and thus his program is irrelevant in reality.

It is also true that most "divers" are not "hard core" divers like the people who have responded to this thread. As Bob (NWGratefulDiver) pointed out, even IF the student had been carefully trained, they aren't in the water and they certainly don't practice skills when they do get in the water. And if they do practice some skill, such as air sharing, they are likely to be scolded by the DM at the resort! (Note -- This has actually happened to me and we were scolded for sharing air. An instructor who happened to be on the dive continued by saying that the ONLY possible response to sharing air was a direct ascent -- but that instructor also believes Gas Management is "Tech Sh%t" and thinks a long hose is going to strangle you!)

I don't know what the possible solutions may be -- even Thal's training system will probably not be of much help to the recreational diver who hasn't been in the water for two (or more) years prior to his trip to Coz.

I don't think the real problem is the initial training -- it is the lack of continuous training and practice after the class is over.

Peter,
I think the goal of Basic Open Water Training, should be to give a person the skills and knowledge, "to not kill themselves" on a 40 to 60 foot dive, by doing something stupid. It is not supposed to make them a GREAT Diver. But they do need the most important skills----guage reading/monitoring air supply.....s-drill air sharing.. mask off and on underwater.....peripherol awareness of buddy....don't do follow the leader diving....how to kick/propel yourself on scuba....how to find close to neutral with a BC at depth....and how to do a CESA. Lots of practice with the CESA...

Rather than than choosing to not teach OOA scenarios to the divers MOST LIKELY to run out of air, if anything, let these agencies with profit and expediency in mind, eliminate teaching anything of table or DCS knowledge beyond just showing them the NDL for 60 feet, 50 feet and 40 feet.
Or, maybe just simplify this....the basic underwater diver does NOT dive deeper than 60 feet, and NEVER dives longer than 40 minutes ( less to remember, less chance of OOA)....Someone like Cressi could make a cheap and simple gauge that shows depth and time, alarms like crazy if 61 feet or deeper is reached, and alarms like crazy at 40 minutes into any dive.....
The reality is, left to their own duration attempts, the new Basic Open Water Diver will run low on air long before they become saturated with nitrogen-- to the degree that this risk comes anywhere close to the risk of OOA. Let's have the instructors spend the time where it is really needed.

Regards,
DanV

 

[Ayisha]

I would like to know how in the world the industry is able to claim the emergency swimming ascent is so "dangerous". With proper medical screening, people who are asmatics or have equivalent exhalation issues, would either NOT be in the diving population, or would gain the right to dive with a "handicapped diver" categorization, with it's own strategies for OOA solutions--these being much more like what Ken's direction is running in (for this thread).

Healthy fit divers should be able to do the CESA , just like a commercial airline pilot SHOULD be able to do a beautiful landing in the ocean or a river if the NEED arises....

It is total bs that this is dangerous...unless you are planning on taking medically unfit divers through normal courses, and allowing NEVER-EVERS to be in your class.

Regards,
DanV

There are varying severities of asthma and common sense goes a long way. I have mild asthma which is rarely induced, perhaps once or twice a year. It can be induced by allergies, cold, exercise, and respiratory illness, which I try to avoid if I can. The medical advice given to me in regard to diving is to take my inhaler preventively before diving in cold water, salt water or in current, which I follow. I don't dive when I'm congested and I don't work hard underwater. My dives are slow and relaxed.

I dive in extremely cold water in the great lakes throughout the spring and summer. I know enough not to pursue ice diving or combine cold air temps with extremely cold water. I know that the comfortable limit for my lungs is 120 - 130 feet max at 38F, so I will not be pursuing any deeper coldwater diving where my lungs will be compressed to even less than a non-asthmatic diver. I can feel that it becomes progressively harder to breathe at depth depending on how cold the water is and I know my limits.

I resent the term "NEVER-EVERS" being applied to any asthmatics including mild asthmatics. I have enjoyed diving for 9 years and if my doctor thinks it's fine for me to dive with precautions and my diving experience supports that belief, then I am fine with that.

 

[danvolker]

There are varying severities of asthma and common sense goes a long way. I have mild asthma which is rarely induced, perhaps once or twice a year. It can be induced by allergies, cold, exercise, and respiratory illness, which I try to avoid if I can. The medical advice given to me in regard to diving is to take my inhaler preventively before diving in cold water, salt water or in current, which I follow. I don't dive when I'm congested and I don't work hard underwater. My dives are slow and relaxed.

I dive in extremely cold water in the great lakes throughout the spring and summer. I know enough not to pursue ice diving or combine cold air temps with extremely cold water. I know that the comfortable limit for my lungs is 120 - 130 feet max at 38F, so I will not be pursuing any deeper coldwater diving where my lungs will be compressed to even less than a non-asthmatic diver. I can feel that it becomes progressively harder to breathe at depth depending on how cold the water is and I know my limits.

I resent the term "NEVER-EVERS" being applied to any asthmatics including mild asthmatics. I have enjoyed diving for 9 years and if my doctor thinks it's fine for me to dive with precautions and my diving experience supports that belief, then I am fine with that.

A NEVER EVER does not refer to asthmatics....a NEVER EVER is a person that just cant learn diving....you see them at ski slopes as well..the people that cant even snow plow, and nver will learn to ski.

The asthmatic is on a medical side of this discussion---I think you should have different training than a person with healthy lungs....what is totally safe for me, is very unsafe for you.....I should NOT be prevented from doing what is safe for me, by the issues that effect you and not me.


DanV