Tri-Mix Agencies?

[ScubaFeenD]

Of course not. Either you can reach your valves or you can't. Either you can switch gases or you can't. Either you can hold your stops and follow a schedule or you can't. That part isn't rocket surgery.

Beyond the obvious, much of what experience does is tell you if you're capable of actually following through on the mantra "solve it in the water." It's hard to describe the feeling of urgency caused by compounded failures when you're struggling against the current at 20 feet in your flooded drysuit, can turn your head and see the surface, and yet it's inaccessible. I imagine it's like putting a nice filet mignon in front of a starving man, handing him a fork and knife and saying "don't eat this."

Either you have the mental strength to make good decisions (I physically can ascend but it's not a good idea, and there is this other threat looming - which one is worse and for which one should I accept the risk?) and follow through on them. Fight or flight. Sometimes it's right to flee, but often it's better to fight. In technical diving (there, I used the phrase), you have to immediately recognize, logically address, and sometimes overcome what is instinctual response.


Training is or can be part of that equation, but you can never turn off the knowledge that "this is fake, I'm just in a class, that's not really leaking, he's not really toxing." I learned recently how two-three pretty minor things in a bad spot can ruin a dive. And man oh man is it different when you can't just look at your team/instructor, give the "cut the drill" sign and start over.

I totally get that. I guess what I am having a hard time understanding is how you cross a threshold of readiness without first experiencing it. Should I wait until, on recreational limit dives, I have a fubar dive that i barely survive until I decide that I can handle it? I am assuming your point is just that taking is slower allows you to have greater buffer in the case something goes wrong and your resolve is tested. Its just hard to operate in a construct without defined boundaries; makes decisions about training and leveling up more difficult.

 

[Rainer]

Its just hard to operate in a construct without defined boundaries; makes decisions about training and leveling up more difficult.

Welcome to life.

 

[lamont]

I totally get that. I guess what I am having a hard time understanding is how you cross a threshold of readiness without first experiencing it. Should I wait until, on recreational limit dives, I have a fubar dive that i barely survive until I decide that I can handle it? I am assuming your point is just that taking is slower allows you to have greater buffer in the case something goes wrong and your resolve is tested. Its just hard to operate in a construct without defined boundaries; makes decisions about training and leveling up more difficult.

Just because biologically you are mature enough to procreate, should you?

Socially we have some norms that suggest that waiting until you are 18 is at the very least a really good idea.

Similarly, 100-150 single tank recreational dives before strapping on doubles and taking entry-level technical training is probably a very good idea.

Listening to people with 50 dives talk about technical dive training is kind of like listening to a 13-year old pontificate about having sex with hollywood actresses...

 

[boulderjohn]

I totally get that. I guess what I am having a hard time understanding is how you cross a threshold of readiness without first experiencing it. Should I wait until, on recreational limit dives, I have a fubar dive that i barely survive until I decide that I can handle it?

Actually, the answer has been given a number of times in this thread.

Start with the basic training associated with tech diving. You will see that all the agencies have a sequence that will take you from where you are to where you need to be. Those sequences differ, so I advise comparing them to see which makes the most sense to you.

They will start you with buoyancy and propulsion skills and add more as you slowly begin to master those.

And I am serious with the word "slowly." I thought I was a buoyancy pro until I started tech training and learned what a dweeb I was. It took me a long time to get where I am today, and I have a long way to go until I get to where the really good divers are.

As you develop those skills, the question you asked above will gradually be answered. You will realize that you can't really hold a long deco stop with your team until you have really mastered both buoyancy and propulsion, including the ability to back kick to hold position. You will find how really, really hard blue water ascents can be. You will be given all kinds of problems to solve while holding your position perfectly.

Once you have some of that mastered, you will become ready to start taking helium mixes to depths that require those skills during decompression.

 

[Jax]

Of course not. Either you can reach your valves or you can't. Either you can switch gases or you can't. Either you can hold your stops and follow a schedule or you can't. That part isn't rocket surgery.

Beyond the obvious, much of what experience does is tell you if you're capable of actually following through on the mantra "solve it in the water." It's hard to describe the feeling of urgency caused by compounded failures when you're struggling against the current at 20 feet in your flooded drysuit, can turn your head and see the surface, and yet it's inaccessible. I imagine it's like putting a nice filet mignon in front of a starving man, handing him a fork and knife and saying "don't eat this."

Either you have the mental strength to make good decisions (I physically can ascend but it's not a good idea, and there is this other threat looming - which one is worse and for which one should I accept the risk?) and follow through on them. Fight or flight. Sometimes it's right to flee, but often it's better to fight. In technical diving (there, I used the phrase), you have to immediately recognize, logically address, and sometimes overcome what is instinctual response.


Training is or can be part of that equation, but you can never turn off the knowledge that "this is fake, I'm just in a class, that's not really leaking, he's not really toxing." I learned recently how two-three pretty minor things in a bad spot can ruin a dive. And man oh man is it different when you can't just look at your team/instructor, give the "cut the drill" sign and start over.

I totally get that. I guess what I am having a hard time understanding is how you cross a threshold of readiness without first experiencing it. Should I wait until, on recreational limit dives, I have a fubar dive that i barely survive until I decide that I can handle it? I am assuming your point is just that taking is slower allows you to have greater buffer in the case something goes wrong and your resolve is tested. Its just hard to operate in a construct without defined boundaries; makes decisions about training and leveling up more difficult.

FWIW, this is a debate that cannot be won by either side.

This has been going on for the ages . . . some say you can train and practice without going to the edge; others say you have to experience the edge before you know how you will handle it.

Anyone see the "combat scuba diver" training for the navy seal program? Same thing happens in the Ranger training classes. Students are pushed to the absolute limit of human tolerance so they "know" how they will react and are confident in their training. Unfortunately, some die in training.

Others say the risk is unnecessary, that if people are trained and practiced, practiced, practiced, they will react appropriately when the time comes, no matter what their physical or mental state.

Who is right? This hasn't been solved over hundreds of years. . . .

 

[lamont]

This has absolutely nothing to do with "combat scuba diver" training done by navy seals.

The kinds of technical diving that we've been talking about here don't require superhuman abilities or death-defying training.

Just build up some experience in the water first.

It doesn't require "going to the edge", there's nothing about a 150 foot 20 minute dive that is particularly "edgy" -- no more so than driving 60 mph down a freeway in a major city -- but if you slam into the car in front of you at 60 mph that's going to make for a bad day...

Was your first experience driving a car trying to merge onto the interstate? Or did you drive around parking lots and then non-arterials first? That's all we're talking about...

FWIW, this is a debate that cannot be won by either side.

This has been going on for the ages . . . some say you can train and practice without going to the edge; others say you have to experience the edge before you know how you will handle it.

Anyone see the "combat scuba diver" training for the navy seal program? Same thing happens in the Ranger training classes. Students are pushed to the absolute limit of human tolerance so they "know" how they will react and are confident in their training. Unfortunately, some die in training.

Others say the risk is unnecessary, that if people are trained and practiced, practiced, practiced, they will react appropriately when the time comes, no matter what their physical or mental state.

Who is right? This hasn't been solved over hundreds of years. . . .

 

[down4fun]

I totally get that. I guess what I am having a hard time understanding is how you cross a threshold of readiness without first experiencing it. Should I wait until, on recreational limit dives, I have a fubar dive that i barely survive until I decide that I can handle it? I am assuming your point is just that taking is slower allows you to have greater buffer in the case something goes wrong and your resolve is tested. Its just hard to operate in a construct without defined boundaries; makes decisions about training and leveling up more difficult.

I don't think there is a magic number of dives that makes you ready to start technical training. But I do believe the more dives you have under your belt, chances are the more situations you have faced and survived. There is no substitute for experience. The first time the SHTF and you are faced with the flight or fight response it's critical how you respond, possibly even fatal.
Early on in my diving I bombed a wreck in 130ft with a DM and completely over breathed my reg and was air starved when i grabbed the wreck. It took mind control to realize that my instinct to race for the surface was probably going to kill me, to "talk myself down," to breath slowly and deeply knowing that my heart rate and respiration would come down and that despite the panic i was nearing I would be ok IF I did the right thing. And that was a silly recreational dive.
Nobody likes to hear "wait" or "not now," I was no different. And so i can empathize with newer diver wanting to go technical and to go deeper. But like it or not experience takes time.

The deeper you go the higher the price you pay for your mistakes.

 

[Jax]

This has absolutely nothing to do with "combat scuba diver" training done by navy seals.

The kinds of technical diving that we've been talking about here don't require superhuman abilities or death-defying training.

Just build up some experience in the water first.

It doesn't require "going to the edge", there's nothing about a 150 foot 20 minute dive that is particularly "edgy" -- no more so than driving 60 mph down a freeway in a major city -- but if you slam into the car in front of you at 60 mph that's going to make for a bad day...

Was your first experience driving a car trying to merge onto the interstate? Or did you drive around parking lots and then non-arterials first? That's all we're talking about...

'tis the philosophies I was discussing . . . Some believe you have to be close to the edge to be trained, some say not. That's all.

 

[DevonDiver]

The rest of this has been a debate that I can only comment on from admittedly very little experience. However, i stand by my opinion that adding helium doesn't necessarily require an arsenal of experience at first.

I am surprised that you have such strong opinions on the subject, whilst admitting you have very little experience on the matter - especially when those opinions conflict with the advice given by some extremely experienced divers (who reflect a wide cross-section of agencies).

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but surely logic dictates that those opinions should reflect the capacity of being open-minded enough to respect that other people may have the experience that you are lacking...and that adds some validity to what they are saying?

This debate, whilst entertaining and thought provoking, has clearly defined goals... because some people are answering the OPs question about a 'Trimix Course', whilst others are talking about the benefits of 'squirting a little helium in your tank for a recreational dive'.

I would suggest that the best course of action for the OP and ScubaFeenD would be to actually spend some time with technical/trimix divers - talk with them and observe what they do. Watch the preparations they make. See how they plan their dives. Reflect upon how they plan for contingencies..and make note of the dangers they prepare for. Watch them training and rehearsing underwater. Make a point of noting their bouyancy, trim and propulsion skills. Consider how they react to task loading... ascending without masks, shut-down drills during free-flows whilst blind-folded, maintaining hover depth whilst dealing with several problems simultaneously... etc etc

If you still feel confident that you could perform to that standard... ask the instructor for a 'technical familiarisation' or 'tech try dive'. Most instructors do those. Be prepared to be humbled.

It has become clear that while many here are referring to all trimix diving, especially deep diving, while my assumption is that it doesn't necessarily have to be deep and can be used for non- mandatory decompression diving.

Of course they are. Trimix is useless as a shallow diving gas.

Trimix is used to reduce the narcotic properties of nitrogen. Those narcotic properties do not present unless you reach depths at the outer limit of recreational diving. Spending any meaningful time at those depths will incur a decompression obligation....and requires tech training.

Trimix for a 5 minute NDL at 40m? At huge expense and requiring expensive training? Worthwhile??

 

[liuk3]

I am surprised that you have such strong opinions on the subject, whilst admitting you have very little experience on the matter - especially when those opinions conflict with the advice given by some extremely experienced divers (who reflect a wide cross-section of agencies).

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but surely logic dictates that those opinions should reflect the capacity of being open-minded enough to respect that other people may have the experience that you are lacking...and that adds some validity to what they are saying?

Well written. I had wondered the same. Thanks.