Tri-Mix Agencies?

[DevonDiver]

.... you make far too many assumptions about what people experience underwater for judgement based solely on number to be valid.

With all due respect, what I wrote was not an assumption.

In fact, the correlation is so lose in my mind that in many cases it is untrustworthy. 1000 dives on shallow reefs isnt 1000 dives in puget sound or in jersey or etc...

Have you done 1000 dives on shallow reefs? If not, how can you state that with any certainty.

You are semi-correct, if your statement is interpreted that '1000 dives on a coral reef will not provide the experience you need to be equally effective on puget sound' or, conversely, that '1000 dives on puget sound will not provide the experience needed to be equally effective on a coral reef as a diver who has completed their 1000 dives in those conditions'.

Please don't get caught in the 'logic trap' that temperate water diving is 'harder' than tropical diving. They are different. Nothing more, nothing less.

Any diver whose experience is primarily gained from a single diving environment will have an experience void in different conditions. That said, the majority of core diving skills and knowledge are absolutely transferable.

Further, the flaming of the OP occurred without any further inquiry into his experience. Clearly, the diving gods on the boards seem to think you need many many hundreds of dive before you EVER get to a level of skill and experience necessary for trimix (or triox, more appropriately),

I do not believe the OP was flamed in any way. He was given pertinent advice by several members who are tech qualified and have a clear understanding of the skill prerequisites needed for success in this training.

The answers given to the OP do not reflect any form of elitism or ego. Firstly, they represent the stated agency pre-requisites for tech training. The OP needed to be aware of those. Secondly, the qualified opinion about skill requirements for tech training are liable to save the OP from wasting money paying for a course that they might not pass...and probably would not even enjoy.

The fact that this discussion is about trimix...and not even considering entry-level tech training leads me to believe that certain contributors don't have a full understanding of the system of technical diving development.

which the actual experienced leaders of training agencies dont seem to think is as necessary.

Every tech instructor, from every agency, is instructed by their agency to pre-assess their students before initiating the course. That reflects the agencies putting an onus of responsibility for determining the necessary skill level onto the (well experienced and highly trained) technical diving instructor.

I've never seen a tech course run, where the instructor did not perform an in-water assessement of their divers. On many occasions, I've seen those students told "not yet....go away and get more experience".

That said, the bare minimum dive/experience requirement for tech training is still clearly written by all the agencies. Rescue Diver, with nitrox cert and 100+ dives (including xxx deep dives) is a common standard amongst the agencies.

All you have to do is learn skill, there is nothing in the standards about ingrained skill and response under pressure.

That is a very naive view. As I have previously mentioned, the ability to conduct a skill on a recreational diving course does not equate to performance of that skill whilst task loaded on a technical diving course.

There is not a technical diving course on this planet that does not place the student under pressure from deliberate task loading.

As they say.... 'the truth will out'.

In fact, task loading and failures are, at most, limited in even the highest levels of the GUE recreational curriculum. In fact looking like a fundamentals diver at 20 dives (rec pass with a 5 foot allowed buoyancy window prepares you right away for triox, doesn't it?)

Nope.

I am not a GUE instructor (but I know a few), and I was always aware that one course is not an automatic, and immediate, gateway to the next.

GUE still demand 100 dives minimum for tech 1, in addition to a Fundies (tech) pass. Applicants still undergo an assessment before training. Applicants are not guaranteed to pass the course.

What GUE instructor would permit a student to enroll (regardless of attaining the prerequisites) if they could plainly see that they wouldn't reach the certifying standard?

Realistically...how many divers do you think have enrolled, or been accepted to enroll, on GUE (or any other agency) tech courses with 100 or less dives?

For trimix diving (full trimix, not normoxic), the minimum experience is 200 dives. That paints a picture doesn't it?

I mean, the guy asked about trimix and the flaming began. No one asked for more info, they just looked at his dive number and made a judgement.

Trimix diving is highly advanced. Not exclusive... just advanced. It requires a high level of diving skill to ensure safety. Whilst the OP may be a one-in-a-million progidy diver..... the chances are that he is just a good, confident recreational diver who can display good diving skills under low-stress situations. Those who are experienced with tech diving can understand how that level of skill does not equate or translate into success on a tech course.

Trimix shouldnt be an exclusive club

Deep trimix decompression diving is a high risk pursuit. The training for this reflects the high degree of capacity that a diver needs in order to conduct those dives with a base level of safety.

That is not exclusivity.... it is common sense.

There is nothing exclusive about enrolling on a tech diving course. Passing that course...and remaining safe when diving afterwards.... is a different matter.

You are confusing advice born from experience, with snobbishness. You are wrong to feel that way.

To put things in perspective... when working in the scuba industry, I typically complete over 100 dives per month. Month after month after month. Advising a novice diver to gain a couple of hundred dives really isn't being exclusive. It's just a matter of perspective about where we define 'advanced' level diving skills and/or experience.

If a diver was inclined to feel that 100 or 200 dives was 'a lot', then they would certainly have to re-appraise their perspective before making the stride into advanced level diving.

...and instead of flaming divers interested divers here should probably be friendlier. God, this whole discussion reminds me of the history readings about nitrox...

I don't see any unfriendly posts to the OP in this thread. It is not an unfriendly act to provide someone with realistic advice. Neither is it an insult to appraise a diver's likely capacity based on their diving experience.

Sub-100 dives really is not stepping into the big league....although it can lead some divers to imagine themselves to be a big fish, without realising how small a pond they swim in.

To compare recreational nitrox with technical trimix is a complete nonesense. Nitrox is a shallow, recreational gas. It requires little in the way of training and nothing in the way of additional task loading for the diver. Trimix is for deep, decompression diving. The equipment, procedures and associated dangers make it entirely dissimular. You do not seem to be aware of those differences.

Is it possible that you are mistaking full 'Trimix' training for the use of normoxic mixes within recreational depths?

Trimix is a great thing. It's use within the narcotic range of air is a definite advantage....but it brings about a wide range of compliations for the diver and, hence, requires a much elevated skill level.

Squirting a bit of helium into a single cylinder or doubles, for a normoxic 'trimix' dive is not what the OP was suggesting he attempted. Nor is it what he will get if he were to enroll upon a trimix qualification course (after, of course, he had completed the extended range and decompression training elements).

It is admirable that you should wish to campaign against any form of 'elitism' within the scuba community.... but sadly you are way off the mark with your understanding of why so many qualified tech divers and instructors have advised the OP against progressing to a tech level at this stage in his diving evolution.

 

[boulderjohn]

Further, the flaming of the OP occurred without any further inquiry into his experience. Clearly, the diving gods on the boards seem to think you need many many hundreds of dive before you EVER get to a level of skill and experience necessary for trimix (or triox, more appropriately), which the actual experienced leaders of training agencies dont seem to think is as necessary.

My memory of this thread was different from yours, so I went back and reviewed it. The responses to his initial posts were very civil and helpful for quite some time. Then at post 19, you stepped in and challenged some people, which led to a bit of a brouhaha between several others and you, chiefly, but not the OP. But everything stayed very civil toward the OP.

We were well into the 50's in number of posts before that changed. That is when the OP described his experience in terms that were pretty clearly meant to impress everyone with the quality of his dive experience and demonstrate his readiness for more. It had the opposite effect, and it was at that point that some of the posts got a little harsh, IMO. His post revealed that he had a skewed vision of his readiness, and people were quick to let him know that.

Those first couple of posts may have been strongly worded, but his response to them was overboard, violating the TOS by calling those who responded by an extremely crude and obscene name. It was after that attack that things got to the level of flaming.

It was thus only after the OP revealed his experience and referred to others with an obscenity that things got harsh--not before.

 

[LiteHedded]

Case closed

 

[Blackwood]

Further, the flaming of the OP occurred without any further inquiry into his experience.

The flaming occurred after the OP called people who suggested he may want to take it slow "self righteous cocksuckers."


Perhaps we need a "blow smoke up my [sophomoric anatomy reference]" sub forum where people can post convoluted gear configurations or vastly accelerated and aggressive training schedules and have the system automatically reply with a smiley face and encouraging words. May reduce some of these gigantic threads.

Someone who doesn't have thick enough skin to read anonymous criticism without resorting to name calling should be warned that the ocean doesn't pull punches either.

 

[lamont]

forgot to comment on this:

I mean, the guy asked about trimix and the flaming began. No one asked for more info, they just looked at his dive number and made a judgement. Trimix shouldnt be an exclusive club, and instead of flaming divers interested divers here should probably be friendlier. God, this whole discussion reminds me of the history readings about nitrox...

i actually agree about diving 30/30 recreationally, that the bar should be lower. anyone with the equivalent of a fundies pass who can just manage to pull off doing *some* amount of deco between 30 and the surface, without shooting straight up from 100 feet should be able to dive trimix recreationally. and that probably has 50 dives as a minimum requirement, i can see that no problem.

bigger problem when the stops get longer and you start looking at 150 foot dives with 20 minute bottom times and blowing off significant amounts of mandatory decompression -- which is what the OP was referring to when it comes to "trimix training".

mandatory decompression absolutely requires a *much* higher level of training and experience, and that isn't "nitrox fear" that's the sober evaluation of how much you can hurt yourself blowing off half your deco on a 150 foot/20 minute technical dive.

 

[DevonDiver]

I actually missed that exchange. I read the OP's initial question and jumped to the end of the thread to address it. I am glad I did.

The flaming occurred after the OP called people who suggested he may want to take it slow "self righteous c-----rs."

He can take the advice or leave it.

Guarantee he'll be sulking a lot more having spent $1000+ on a tech course, only to be told that he didn't pass.

Perhaps this behaviour was why his initial instructor took the highly unusual step of recommending tech and cave training? An abject lesson for him? Putting things into perspective? A dose of humility? A change in perspective?

If his ego is that inflated, then I would suggest not taking tech training for an entirely different reason.... simply that he can continue to delude himself about his ability.

 

[David_57]

forgot to comment on this:



i actually agree about diving 30/30 recreationally, that the bar should be lower. anyone with the equivalent of a fundies pass who can just manage to pull off doing *some* amount of deco between 30 and the surface, without shooting straight up from 100 feet should be able to dive trimix recreationally. and that probably has 50 dives as a minimum requirement, i can see that no problem.

bigger problem when the stops get longer and you start looking at 150 foot dives with 20 minute bottom times and blowing off significant amounts of mandatory decompression -- which is what the OP was referring to when it comes to "trimix training".

mandatory decompression absolutely requires a *much* higher level of training and experience, and that isn't "nitrox fear" that's the sober evaluation of how much you can hurt yourself blowing off half your deco on a 150 foot/20 minute technical dive.

TDI has a Helitrox course that can be taken with Advanced Nitrox and the Decompression course I believe the limitations are min O2 21- max He 2O so why not recreational?

 

[ScubaFeenD]

My memory of this thread was different from yours, so I went back and reviewed it. The responses to his initial posts were very civil and helpful for quite some time. Then at post 19, you stepped in and challenged some people, which led to a bit of a brouhaha between several others and you, chiefly, but not the OP. But everything stayed very civil toward the OP.

We were well into the 50's in number of posts before that changed. That is when the OP described his experience in terms that were pretty clearly meant to impress everyone with the quality of his dive experience and demonstrate his readiness for more. It had the opposite effect, and it was at that point that some of the posts got a little harsh, IMO. His post revealed that he had a skewed vision of his readiness, and people were quick to let him know that.

Those first couple of posts may have been strongly worded, but his response to them was overboard, violating the TOS by calling those who responded by an extremely crude and obscene name. It was after that attack that things got to the level of flaming.

It was thus only after the OP revealed his experience and referred to others with an obscenity that things got harsh--not before.

In post 19 i replied to this:

What is the rush? Take the time, work on your skills.. NOBODY at 50 dives is going to be anywhere close to where they need to be for this type of training. Please, do yourself a favor and do one or more of the following... 1. Find yourself a good mentor, someone who has been around for a long time, and has done a lot of tech dives... 2. Take an intro to tech course, or a cavern course. These courses both introduce new skill sets that you will need to work on.

Most agencies are going to require at least an advanced nitrox/deco procedures course as a prerequisite. You will get more out of the training if you first build up your skills, so you aren't struggling with the basics when get to the course.

Is there a particular reason that you want a Trimix cert?

A little hint... experienced divers do not respect a zero to hero mentality. You need to pay your dues.

I dont see the machismo BS as helpful or productive and so i responded to that in a way that I saw fit on an online discussion forum, by calling him out on it. You are right most of the posts surrounding that were civil and eventually gave much of the information the OP requested. Nothing much happened in the thread after that for awhile.

The OP responded poorly later, and welcomed harsh criticism OR silence.

The rest of this has been a debate that I can only comment on from admittedly very little experience. However, i stand by my opinion that adding helium doesn't necessarily require an arsenal of experience at first. It has become clear that while many here are referring to all trimix diving, especially deep diving, while my assumption is that it doesn't necessarily have to be deep and can be used for non- mandatory decompression diving.

Regardless, many good points have been brought up here, which has allowed me the opportunity to consider many things that I had not before.

Sorry for wasting your time in this aimless discussion.

 

[Blackwood]

However, i stand by my opinion that adding helium doesn't necessarily require an arsenal of experience at first.

Of course not. Either you can reach your valves or you can't. Either you can switch gases or you can't. Either you can hold your stops and follow a schedule or you can't. That part isn't rocket surgery.

Beyond the obvious, much of what experience does is tell you if you're capable of actually following through on the mantra "solve it in the water." It's hard to describe the feeling of urgency caused by compounded failures when you're struggling against the current at 20 feet in your flooded drysuit, can turn your head and see the surface, and yet it's inaccessible. I imagine it's like putting a nice filet mignon in front of a starving man, handing him a fork and knife and saying "don't eat this."

Either you have the mental strength to make good decisions (I physically can ascend but it's not a good idea, and there is this other threat looming - which one is worse and for which one should I accept the risk?) and follow through on them. Fight or flight. Sometimes it's right to flee, but often it's better to fight. In technical diving (there, I used the phrase), you have to immediately recognize, logically address, and sometimes overcome what is instinctual response.


Training is or can be part of that equation, but you can never turn off the knowledge that "this is fake, I'm just in a class, that's not really leaking, he's not really toxing." I learned recently how two-three pretty minor things in a bad spot can ruin a dive. And man oh man is it different when you can't just look at your team/instructor, give the "cut the drill" sign and start over.

 

[LiteHedded]

Of course not. Either you can reach your valves or you can't. Either you can switch gases or you can't. Either you can hold your stops and follow a schedule or you can't. That part isn't rocket surgery.

Beyond the obvious, much of what experience does is tell you if you're capable of actually following through on the mantra "solve it in the water." It's hard to describe the feeling of urgency caused by compounded failures when you're struggling against the current at 20 feet in your flooded drysuit, can turn your head and see the surface, and yet it's inaccessible. I imagine it's like putting a nice filet mignon in front of a starving man, handing him a fork and knife and saying "don't eat this."

Either you have the mental strength to make good decisions (I physically can ascend but it's not a good idea, and there is this other threat looming - which one is worse and for which one should I accept the risk?) and follow through on them. Fight or flight. Sometimes it's right to flee, but often it's better to fight. In technical diving (there, I used the phrase), you have to immediately recognize, logically address, and sometimes overcome what is instinctual response.

the mental bit is what heroes like OP don't get. that's the sort of thing experience gives you and why zero to hero is bad news.