Trashing dive ops - my thoughts

[kwinter]

Getting back on topic.....

If the DM needs to plan your dive, adjust your weights, or fill out your logbook, you need more training.

I disagree. Divers of all experience levels go to destinations like Coz. A good dive op has the ability to separate divers by experience and comfort level. I personally don't like going on dives loaded with "guppies" (inexperienced OW divers). There's nothing wrong with them, and the more people that learn to dive, the better for the industry. Even those who only do a few dives a year and don't have the comfort level for more challenging dives. But I prefer to dive with more experienced folks on more challenging and interesting dives.

Some shops on Coz cater to advanced divers. They use more experienced DMs who can get you out of a bad situation, and they go to the more challenging sites regularly. They let you dive your own profile and pretty much leave you alone, but they are there to help just in case. Others cater strictly to basic OW divers and limit themselves to the easy dives. Their DMs might be (or should be) a little more tuned in to the basic skills of helping you put your gear together correctly, etc. I probably wouldn't let one of them touch my gear with a 10 foot pole. A rebreather or even my open circuit gear with sling tanks, manifold block and full face mask is probably not something they have a lot of experience with. And there are a few very large dive ops that say they cater to all types. Those are the ones I think need a bit more scrutiny because I think they are more likely to get in over their heads.

That's not to say they are not good DMs. That's a completely different animal. Training and experience does not necessarily make one good at what you do. And the quality of a DM can vary day to day. And the quality of the DM is not necessarily related to the quality of the dive op, although they must be accountable.

I have been with some fantastic DMs and dealt with terrific shops. I have also had the opposite experiences on occasion. And I've had good DMs from bad dive shops and bad DMs from good shops. They should be evaluated separately. Reports of both kinds are appropriate to post here on the board. But I think some general rules should be followed.

1. Reports should be based on first-hand experience only. No he said, she said stuff.

2. Identify the good and bad things that happened without personalizing it. What's critically important to you may not matter much to someone else. So just saying the dive op sucks isn't enough if you omit the part that your opinion is based on the fact that the DM didn't chill the cerveza correctly.

3. Try to separate the dive operator from the DM as much as possible.

4. Be specific in reporting events, both good and bad.

5. And try to stay relevant. I've seen reports where someone slams a shop or DM because the vis was bad. That's only marginally relevant if you specifically asked about it ahead of time or said you don't like diving in bad vis and they convinced you it would be fine.

Feel free to add to the list. I like reading reviews, both good and bad. Then I can make the decision for myself based on what's important to me. If you want to see examples of nonsense reviews, look at some of the negative hotel reviews on Travel Advisor.

Just my $0.02

Ken

 

[jd950]

Ken:

I agree with most of your points except that it can be difficult to separate the DM from the Dive Op. I say this for two reasons. One is that I may line up a dive op, get on the boat and meet DM Ted or Danny or Pablo or Maria and have a good experience or bad experience with them. I can't rate the DM separately in any meaningful way that would help someone. I don't know anymore about this person than their first name and who they work (or worked) for. Sure some DMs are longtime employees of a business and many people know exactly who they are, but that isn't always the case.

Second, as an employer myself, I accept the premise that my employees represent my business and I accept compliments about my business when they do well and the criticism that comes when they do not. Good employees get rewarded, poor employees don't. I don't think I could ever defend a poor review of my business by saying it was the employee and not me, so don't judge my business. At least not unless I backed that up with some sort of action against the employee.

I don't think I can behind the idea that "such and such is a great dive op, but one or two of their DMs are lousy."

I should add that this is not to say a person cannot or should not comment on a particular DM if they are able to. I frequently read here about some DMs that are quite well kown and well liked.

So, can one request a particularr DM when booking at some of those ops?

 

[DandyDon]

So, can one request a particularr DM when booking at some of those ops?

I do. I'm not that picky, but I have my favs.

 

[teknitroxdiver]

Setting the DMs aside from the review of a dive operator is akin to reviewing a restaurant, raving about the fantastic food, but failing to mention that the service was atrocious. The DM is a representative of the dive operator, a part that is seen most. Thus the quality of person that the op hires reflects back on them. If they hire a quality person who is good at being a divemaster, that is a plus to the op. If they don't care to check up on their divemaster's performance and capabilities, then that is the operator's fault.

 

[scubawife]

Anyway, if some destination forum becomes nothing more than a series of positive comments, with all the negative comments withheld or suppressed, then the reviews become worthless and diminish the value of the forum.

Overly glowing or overly negative both go out the window when trying to figure out who to dive with or where to go.

On every internet forum I've participated on or read, (scuba related, travel related or otherwise), there are always a handful of posters who may as well copy and paste every response they give because it's always the same display of undying love/affection/obsession for their dive op (or hotel, or restaurant) of choice. Glad you loved it, but I'd rather hear what they had to offer then "____ is the best. Call ____, they'll set you up with whatever you need." Sometimes you feel like responding, "I hope you've set up a referral fee system with them, or maybe you're getting paid per post?" And there are those who's only posts are to repeat the same displeasure or distaste they have for a dive op. Get over it and go find someone else better suited for you to dive with.

If someone wants to slam a dive op or gush about them, include that in a more inclusive trip report or post and it will have more credibility. Otherwise you look like a bit of a loon (or like you have a camp style crush on the DM) or a kid stomping off the playground because you didn't like the game the other kids wanted to play.

Oh, and if the threads on the Cozumel board in recent weeks are any indication, I think a lot of us are waaayyyyy overdue for a dive trip! That will be the ultimate cure for most of the ridiculousness and petty arguing. :vintagediver:

 

[kwinter]

I agree with most of your points except that it can be difficult to separate the DM from the Dive Op. I say this for two reasons. One is that I may line up a dive op, get on the boat and meet DM Ted or Danny or Pablo or Maria and have a good experience or bad experience with them. I can't rate the DM separately in any meaningful way that would help someone. I don't know anymore about this person than their first name and who they work (or worked) for. Sure some DMs are longtime employees of a business and many people know exactly who they are, but that isn't always the case.

True, but if I include the DM's name in my report, others might know who to look for and who to avoid. Of course there is the chance that it might be a different Pablo.

Second, as an employer myself, I accept the premise that my employees represent my business and I accept compliments about my business when they do well and the criticism that comes when they do not. Good employees get rewarded, poor employees don't. I don't think I could ever defend a poor review of my business by saying it was the employee and not me, so don't judge my business. At least not unless I backed that up with some sort of action against the employee.

That makes you a responsible employer. I wish they were all like you.

I don't think I can behind the idea that "such and such is a great dive op, but one or two of their DMs are lousy."

Here's where I disagree. A good dive op can hire a bad DM. As you said, good employees get rewarded and bad ones don't. But you only know they're bad from the feedback you get from customers. They may not last long, but they are out there and you could get stuck with one.

So, can one request a particularr DM when booking at some of those ops?

Absolutely! I do it all the time.

Good feedback.

Ken

 

[kwinter]

Setting the DMs aside from the review of a dive operator is akin to reviewing a restaurant, raving about the fantastic food, but failing to mention that the service was atrocious. The DM is a representative of the dive operator, a part that is seen most. Thus the quality of person that the op hires reflects back on them. If they hire a quality person who is good at being a divemaster, that is a plus to the op. If they don't care to check up on their divemaster's performance and capabilities, then that is the operator's fault.

Absolutely! It is equally unfair to give the restaurant a blanket bad review because of bad service. Just give the whole story. Dive Op - 8, DM Pablo - 3, DM Ricardo - 10.

 

[5615mike]

As long as the reports are factual and based on actual experience, then it's probably ok. For example, I did a dive at SCUBA in St. Croix and the DM paid little attention to me, did not adjust my weights as he said he would do when we got in the water, and did not signal me down, just descended and eventually I realized I was the only one on the surface (he signaled from the bottom -- there was 80 ft viz). He also took us down to 80 ft (my first dive after OW) and disappeared at the end of the dive trip before I could get the dive data for my log.

But it's important to give the whole story. For example, in my case, there were huge swells and several other divers for him to get down. I had drifted away from the boat, and after the dive I myself wandered away (after tipping him) beacuse I was very disoriented from seasickness. When I went to the shop the next day they filled out my log book with just about all the info that was missing (minus the details that come from the computer). So the dive op was ok even if my DM was not exactly service oriented that day. I did the rest of my diving that week with other ops on the island and was quite happy with Cane Bay and N2theBlue. (I would be happy to give more details for anyone traveling to St. Croix).

So that kind of report is hopefully ok. "I heard that SCUBA ignores their newbies" is not.

Four years ago we dove 8 days with SCUBA on St. Croix. Had a wonderful time. Staff we very friendly. Pre dive discussions and protocol of dive was all done. I found the DM to be a bit overly cautious but thats just me. We had a few short dives as some folks had some air consumption issues. All in all, I think they run a very nice operation. I guess its just all in ones perception.

 

[MMM]

Ken:So, can one request a particularr DM when booking at some of those ops?

Yes. You might or might not get that individual, but op will take it into consideration along with other divers they have that day.

 

[diverrex]

Some people may make posts unfairly but all in all I think it's fairly easy to read through the posts and figure out the BS from the valuable info. I've been very happy with all the choices of dive ops I've made after reading a selection of opinions. I just don't think that this is a big deal.