Transporting tanks in your vehicle...

[NOVIZWHIZ]

Sounds like something for Myth Busters to test -- "How far will a tank fly with the K valve broke off?"

HA! I wasn't there (thank God!) but I don't think it actually flew that far. The area it went into was a marsh, flat, smooth, real wet, marsh grass, etc. It was low tide - thing just sorta skipped along over the mud like a torpedoe...I found it by following the skid marks. I had to use a couple of small squares of plywood just to get out to it without sinking up to my neck. It wouldn't have gone nearly that far if it had been on dry land.

 

[Delta_P]

1.15 Exemption for Personal Use

(3) Subsection (1) does not apply to
(a) dangerous goods in a quantity greater than 150 kg gross mass that are in transport on a road vehicle, a railway vehicle or a ship on a domestic voyage;

We're both missing this subsection. As you say, 1.15.1(b) sets the max per container, but then 1.15.3 sets the max per load that a driver can claim under a personal use exemption.

Given an aluminum 80 is a little less than 18 kg. (not 17) 150 kg. is slightly more than 8 tanks per vehicle. (Not per person, or per truck and per boat. Nice try, but some of us have already tried that dodge.

1.6 Quantity Limits in Columns 8 and 9 of Schedule 1
Look up schedule 1 for UN1002

Col. 9 Passenger Carrying Road or Rail Index is ...

Columns 8 and 9 refer to commerical carriers transporting both dangerous goods and passengers in the same vehicle/train/vessel. Only relevent if you're trying to persuade Greyhound to ship your tanks on B.C. Ferries.

Clear?

Yep, although I think I detect some international glazed eyeballs around us.

One thing is definite in the TDG Regulations - the only acceptable way to transport cylinders is upright and secured (outside of a specially designed and built locker). Fine for those of us with 3/4 ton trucks, but good luck on that one if you're driving a Honda Civic.

On the bright side, Transport Canada has expressed no interest in cleaning up the streets and protecting us from, among others, the hordes of Albertan tech divers driving over the Rockies on weekends with their vans bulging at the seams from great loads of horizontal T bottles and doubles.

 

[stingray1]

I'll just keep hauling my four tanks strapped upright in the back of my truck. If the valve goes, it's a missile regardless of how you have it. Besides, "I" FEEL SAFER with them upright. Valve goes up and away and tank stays where it is strapped securely to. Maybe one heck of a dent in the floor of the truck bed but, it shouldn't go anywhere all the same.

 

[Ontario Diver]

We're both missing this subsection. As you say, 1.15.1(b) sets the max per container, but then 1.15.3 sets the max per load that a driver can claim under a personal use exemption.

...

Columns 8 and 9 refer to commerical carriers transporting both dangerous goods and passengers in the same vehicle/train/vessel. Only relevent if you're trying to persuade Greyhound to ship your tanks on B.C. Ferries.
QUOTE]

You are correct in that 1.15.3 sets the max load, but it is trumped by 1.6. My TC coach has informed me that the "Passenger" limit and the "personal" limit are the same (ie. the lower of colum 8/9 and 150kg. It gets even more confusing when you realized that Appendix 1 is in liters and the personal excemption section is in kg.

I've popped an e-mail off to my contact in the TDG group in D'ottawa Dere - I'll PM you with the results.

 

[babar]

I keep my doubles upright in the backseat in the foot well. It keeps them upright and hopefully out of trouble. but does make them visible to the outside world and outside sticky fingers.

babar

 

[O2BBubbleFree]

I agree that upright is the most practical, but just for argument’s sake lets consider that what goes up must come down. That valve that launched into the air is going to come back down with the same speed, just like shooting a bullet into the air.

OTOH any horizontal position has the potential of creating two projectiles (tank and valve).

That only leaves mounting ‘em vertical and inverted, with the tank sufficiently restrained. That way there’s only potential for one projectile (the valve), and it should bury itself in the pavement… Good luck designing that rack.

I wonder why SCUBA tanks don’t have caps to protect the valve, like other high-pressure gas bottles. I’m thinking of oxygen and acetylene bottles here.

Oh, and I think that keeping 'em restrained so that they don't fall over or roll around is the most important consideration. More so than what would happen in a collision.

 

[Ontario Diver]

We're both missing this subsection. As you say, 1.15.1(b) sets the max per container, but then 1.15.3 sets the max per load that a driver can claim under a personal use exemption.

...

Columns 8 and 9 refer to commerical carriers transporting both dangerous goods and passengers in the same vehicle/train/vessel. Only relevent if you're trying to persuade Greyhound to ship your tanks on B.C. Ferries.
QUOTE]

You are correct in that 1.15.3 sets the max load, but it is trumped by 1.6. My TC coach has informed me that the "Passenger" limit and the "personal" limit are the same (ie. the lower of colum 8/9 and 150kg. It gets even more confusing when you realized that Appendix 1 is in liters and the personal excemption section is in kg.

I've popped an e-mail off to my contact in the TDG group in D'ottawa Dere - I'll PM you with the results.

Heard from Ottawa. Personal Excemption is 150kg for the load and no single tank in excess of 30kg.

 

[Delta_P]

Heard from Ottawa. Personal Excemption is 150kg for the load and no single tank in excess of 30kg.

Effectively banning Heiser 140s and 190s. Bummer.

Guess they have to be transported empty / valve off, and filled on site. At least we wouldn't need to worry about what position to transport them in.

 

[ChrisA]

Sounds like something for Myth Busters to test -- "How far will a tank fly with the K valve broke off?"

Think for one minute. Let's say you took a hack saw and sawed off a tank valve. What would you see? You'd see a tank with a brass plug screwed into it with a 1/8th inch hole drilled thrugh the plug. Yes the 3000 psi air would leak out but it would take minutes not seconds for the tank to empty.

Tanks are very safe because the hole in the valve is very small
Even with the valves broken off the tank will not turn into a rocket

It turns out that the people who designed the valves and the people at the DOT who approve the designs are not completely stupid.

Do the math. Assume a 3000 psi tank with a severed valve. What force is generated by the escaping air? As a rough estimate you can multiply the pressure inside the take by the area of the hole

OK you still think you can make a rocket out of a tank? try this and see: with no reg in place fully open the valva. You will hear a loud noise but the tank does not spin around or fly through a wall.

 

[Delta_P]

OK you still think you can make a rocket out of a tank? try this and see: with no reg in place fully open the valva. You will hear a loud noise but the tank does not spin around or fly through a wall.

On a tile floor, with a partially opened valve the tank will start to spin. How fast? Dunno - we didn't want to expand the error chain my buddy started by tripping over the tank valve, so we jumped on the tank and secured it.

Take a look at the burst disk plug assembly. Modern burst disk assemblies discharge through three holes, spaced equi-distantly around the plug head. Back in the Jurassic period the plug head discharged through a single hole centred in the plug. The reason for changing the design was given as preventing the tank from travelling if the burst disk blew.

Now, was this design change in response to actual incidents with broken ankles, or a theoretical possibility/myth? Anyone have a good contact in PSI who might know?