Training expiration?

[MXGratefulDiver]

There is a character trait in some people that is different, a trait that makes them feel they can transcend those limits, but I think that is a small portion of the human race, let alone the diving community. You see it in a percentage of open water divers, but I think it occurs even less among cave divers.

... it tends to be more self-correcting in cave diving ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Dive-aholic]

Can you clarify something, because I'm reading a completely different thing in a different thread...

Does your Intro to Cave CERTIFICATION expire or does your "doubles endorsement" expire?

because in an old thread I found they are saying that you are still intro to cave certified, its just your certification to do it in doubles that expires

To be honest, the standards don't address this. When I questioned this a few years ago I was told the doubles endorsement expires. However, I have a hard time with allowing someone who has never set fin in a cave in a single cylinder have to do it after a year or year and a half just because the doubles endorsement expired. I also have a hard time with any cave class (cavern not included) being done in a single cylinder. There's a lack of redundancy. I've only taught one diver intro in a single cylinder and she was engaged to a cave diver and all she wanted to do was dive the Mexican cenotes with him on occasion. She had no desire to go beyond that training or to do more advanced dives. I doubt whether she's even been in an overhead since the class since their situation changed.

---------- Post added April 27th, 2014 at 12:40 AM ----------

Isn't it just Apprentice that expires? I think it makes sense since it's not a level per se, it's a break during instruction towards Full Cave.

I don't see a problem in a diver wanting to stop at the Intro level. If what they want is to do more limited penetrations and follow a main line, why not? But then it's Intro (which I think doesn't expire), not Apprentice. So it is possible to stop cave instruction at a certain level, not just in the middle of Full Cave and decide to remain there.

Divers can exceed their training at almost every certification level. The fact that a certification expires does not prevent that. And the mentioned cases of deaths of Intro divers wouldn't have been solved by having their certifications expire. They could have pushed the limits within the expire date of their certification. And I've read several accounts of Apprentice divers doing just that, because for a certain time, their limits are expanded to a point where it's very easy to go a bit further and hard for others to notice what they are doing.

It all boils down to attitude.

No, Intro Cave done with double cylinders also expires.

---------- Post added April 27th, 2014 at 01:06 AM ----------

How would you respond if I suggested that any open water certification should expire unless they started cavern diving in one year?
Would a reasonable response to that suggestion be "Some people just want to dive open water and should not be in caverns, and are ok with that"

How would you respond if I suggested that any cavern diver certification should expire unless they took intro in one year?
Would a reasonable response be "Some people just want to dive caverns and not do intro, and are ok with that"

You are making this out to be more than it is. From the NACD standards:

Unlike the other NACD courses, prospective students may be encouraged to enroll in the Cavern Diver Course. The NACD feels that this course is comparable to other open water specialty classes and will have a significant safety benefit for all active scuba divers who enroll, even if they do not continue to dive in the overhead environment. Promoting students to continue training or diving in the overhead environment beyond this level is a violation of NACD ethical standards.

And the reason for encouraging enrollment in the Cavern Diver course is, IMO, because the skills are invaluable and can save a diver's life if that diver ever happens to wander into an overhead environment. But there are divers who may never even come near a cavern and don't need that training.

I really think you (not you specifically, I mean cave instructors in general) have a vested interest in selling one more class and an expiring card is one way to do that.

If you look at the NACD and NSS-CDS websites you'll find that many of the instructors listed do not teach diving for a living, or at least not cave diving. Very few of us can afford to do that. Are there instructors that depend on dive instruction to pay the bills. Sure. But they are few, at least in the US. Most of us have other sources of income and dive instruction is something we do for the love of the activity.

If you want to talk about people diving beyond the limits of their card that's one issue. They are not going to suddenly say "omg I will or won't, can or can't dive beyond the limits of my card" because of an expiration date on the back of it.

You're right. Many will already be diving beyond their limits or will at some point just ease into it. Accident analysis records reveal that the community has had deaths of intro cave divers diving double cylinders beyond their limits. There are no such incidents for intro cave divers diving single cylinders that I'm aware of.