Training expiration?

[Tickler]

Does it cost anything to renew? I am a student on a very limited budget and do not care to go past intro to cave any time soon. Also if I get my certification through the NACD and send in when my card expires if they continue they way they have been, it will be another 6-8 months before I get a new card from them.

 

[Cave Chick]

I knew a few peoples who's cards expired. A instructor required them to do a one day review with him and then he renewed them. They had to pay for the instructors daily fee and card replacement fee.

 

[Dive-aholic]

Does it cost anything to renew? I am a student on a very limited budget and do not care to go past intro to cave any time soon. Also if I get my certification through the NACD and send in when my card expires if they continue they way they have been, it will be another 6-8 months before I get a new card from them.

NACD certification cards have been going out in a timely manner. A year and a half ago there were issues because the computer and card printer were not in the possession of the NACD. This was rectified and, while it did take a couple of months to get caught up and figure out what had and hadn't been printed, things got back on track. Recently we had an issue with the NACD computer hard drive crashing but that was fixed within a month. It took another month to piece together data that had been lost and catch up on student registrations. A new process is now in place so data is backed up instantly. Cards are going out within 10 days of the registration being received. And with the new online registration process there's no reason student registrations should not be received soon after the class is completed.


As for expiring registrations, both NACD and NSS-CDS have expiring intro cave and apprentice cave certifications. The reason behind this is to try to prevent intro and apprentice cave divers from diving beyond their training limits. The only site I know of that checks the certification type is Ginnie Springs. If you don't have an Intro with doubles card they will mark your pass and wrist band for single tank only. Last I knew TDI doesn't print the gear configuration on their Intro cave card so even with a non-expiring card you would be limited to single tank diving there. The only non-expiring intro cave card I am aware of is IANTD. If I have students who know it may take longer than a year to return for the apprentice class I encourage them to also get an IANTD certification. I don't teach the class any different since I already cover all skills for all the agencies I teach through. The only difference is having to take an additional exam and pay an additional certification processing fee.

 

[kierentec]

Last I knew TDI doesn't print the gear configuration on their Intro cave card so even with a non-expiring card you would be limited to single tank diving there. The only non-expiring intro cave card I am aware of is IANTD. .

TDI Intro to Cave Card does not expire and reads:
Penetration limited to 1/3 single cylinder or 1/6 doubles. Max depth 40M/130FT. No Deco. No restrictions. Maintain single continuous guideline to exit.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

TDI Intro to Cave Card does not expire and reads:
Penetration limited to 1/3 single cylinder or 1/6 doubles. Max depth 40M/130FT. No Deco. No restrictions. Maintain single continuous guideline to exit.

This, in my opinion is most unfortunate.

There is no incentive for that diver to seek additional professional training since that card never expires. This is the reason that NACD & NSS-CDS makes cards at that level expire.

There is also no reason for that diver not to attempt to learn the rest of it on his own. When s/he gets into the cave there is nothing to stop them from diving 1/3 of their doubles and conducting complex navigation dives.

We saw this at Peacock a few years back. The diver had a non-expiring card at the intro to cave level. The training had been conducted several years earlier and the card would have long expired if the eighteen month expiration date had been on the card. The diver dived Peacock countless times & was tired of being on the continuous Gold Line. The diver was convinced by a buddy to conduct a complex navigation dive. The diver was not trained to do complex navigation and perished in the cave due to an inability to properly navigate jumps.

It is my opinion that if the card had expired the diver would have sought training at the apprentice and cave level. The diver would have learned to conduct complex navigation dives and likely would be here with us today.

Of course offering a non expiring card carries with it financial incentives for the instructor and the agencies that issue them. This is to the detriment of cave diver training. The diver looking for shortcuts would certainly see the value in a non-expiring card.

All opinions stated above are mine and I am not making these statements as a representative of any agency or organization.

 

[SWAMPY459]

This, in my opinion is most unfortunate.

There is no incentive for that diver to seek additional professional training since that card never expires. This is the reason that NACD & NSS-CDS makes cards at that level expire.

There is also no reason for that diver not to attempt to learn the rest of it on his own. When s/he gets into the cave there is nothing to stop them from diving 1/3 of their doubles and conducting complex navigation dives.

I disagree with your thinking, Jim. I plan to take intro, but I really don't have any interest in doing full cave dives or complex navigation such as the grand traverse, etc.

I think I would be perfectly happy doing intro level dives, and I think its unfair to be forced into going further by a training agency.

Think about this, if I get certifed and dive four safe cave dives every weekend for an entire year, then suddenly I'm incapable of diving the same dive the next day safely? really?

Why push someone into getting a certification to do longer, deeper and more complex dives if they would rather just do intro level dives?

edit: and you are saying they are going to wait a year, and then break the rules. I think if they are going to break the rules they are going to do it from day one, not wait till their card is expired.

 

[Dive-aholic]

TDI Intro to Cave Card does not expire and reads:
Penetration limited to 1/3 single cylinder or 1/6 doubles. Max depth 40M/130FT. No Deco. No restrictions. Maintain single continuous guideline to exit.

But it doesn't state whether the training was conducted in a single cylinder or double cylinders. So with that Ginnie Springs will likely only issue a wrist band and car pass that allows single tanks diving there. I've seen this issue in the past there.

---------- Post added April 8th, 2014 at 10:28 PM ----------

I disagree with your thinking, Jim. I plan to take intro, but I really don't have any interest in doing full cave dives or complex navigation such as the grand traverse, etc.

I think I would be perfectly happy doing intro level dives, and I think its unfair to be forced into going further by a training agency.

Think about this, if I get certifed and dive four safe cave dives every weekend for an entire year, then suddenly I'm incapable of diving the same dive the next day safely? really?

Why push someone into getting a certification to do longer, deeper and more complex dives if they would rather just do intro level dives?

edit: and you are saying they are going to wait a year, and then break the rules. I think if they are going to break the rules they are going to do it from day one, not wait till their card is expired.

I think you misunderstand. It's not that 366 days later you'll decide to break the rules after not breaking them for 365 days. It's that after you've done those same 4 safe cave dives every weekend for two or three years you might decide it's okay to jump off the mainline. You've done the same dive so many times a single jump won't be an issue. And then why not another one...and another...

The intro cave cert was never intended to be a final certification level. In the early days of cave diving training there was only one level - cave diver. The agencies eventually saw a need to create a cavern certification level as well and did so. Eventually the 4 levels we have now became the norm. First, we don't recommend or want anyone to do the zero to hero program. It takes longer than a few days to learn the skills and, even more importantly, learn the environment. And also, lots of divers don't have the time or money to spend 8 days doing the zero to hero program. Training is also hard on the body and mind. Personally, I won't train for more than 4-5 days in a row without taking a break from the water and from teaching. It wears me down so I know it has to wear the students down even more.

 

[SWAMPY459]

But it doesn't state whether the training was conducted in a single cylinder or double cylinders. So with that Ginnie Springs will likely only issue a wrist band and car pass that allows single tanks diving there. I've seen this issue in the past there.

---------- Post added April 8th, 2014 at 10:28 PM ----------



I think you misunderstand. It's not that 366 days later you'll decide to break the rules after not breaking them for 365 days. It's that after you've done those same 4 safe cave dives every weekend for two or three years you might decide it's okay to jump off the mainline. You've done the same dive so many times a single jump won't be an issue. And then why not another one...and another...

The intro cave cert was never intended to be a final certification level. In the early days of cave diving training there was only one level - cave diver. The agencies eventually saw a need to create a cavern certification level as well and did so. Eventually the 4 levels we have now became the norm. First, we don't recommend or want anyone to do the zero to hero program. It takes longer than a few days to learn the skills and, even more importantly, learn the environment. And also, lots of divers don't have the time or money to spend 8 days doing the zero to hero program. Training is also hard on the body and mind. Personally, I won't train for more than 4-5 days in a row without taking a break from the water and from teaching. It wears me down so I know it has to wear the students down even more.

Can you clarify something, because I'm reading a completely different thing in a different thread...

Does your Intro to Cave CERTIFICATION expire or does your "doubles endorsement" expire?

because in an old thread I found they are saying that you are still intro to cave certified, its just your certification to do it in doubles that expires

 

[kensuf]

FWIW, I have an intro card from the NACD that was issued in 1994 and has no expiration date. And I'm also a TDI instructor that will be taking a TDI intro-cave IE in the very near future (and am working slowly towards my CDS basic cave instructor rating too).

However, there have been several fatalities where intro divers got bored and pushed their limits. 2010, Patricia Barkley comes immediately to mind. She was a 67 year old retired mother that had been diving Peacock Springs every week for four years and then tried to do a circuit.

Cave Diver's Forum - Cave Diving Resource

 

[SWAMPY459]

FWIW, I have an intro card from the NACD that was issued in 1994 and has no expiration date. And I'm also a TDI instructor that will be taking a TDI intro-cave IE in the very near future (and am working slowly towards my CDS basic cave instructor rating too).

However, there have been several fatalities where intro divers got bored and pushed their limits. 2010, Patricia Barkley comes immediately to mind. She was a 67 year old retired mother that had been diving Peacock Springs every week for four years and then tried to do a circuit.

Cave Diver's Forum - Cave Diving Resource

How would you respond if I suggested that any open water certification should expire unless they started cavern diving in one year?
Would a reasonable response to that suggestion be "Some people just want to dive open water and should not be in caverns, and are ok with that"

How would you respond if I suggested that any cavern diver certification should expire unless they took intro in one year?
Would a reasonable response be "Some people just want to dive caverns and not do intro, and are ok with that"

I'm betting in his many years of diving, Jim Wyatt has probably taught quite a few cavern classes. By the logic presented here EVERY single cavern student that has ever taken cavern has gone on to full cave and does multiple jumps and traverses... I'm betting that is not the case.

I bet some are happy just diving caverns.

Jim says there is a "financial incentive" in having a class that offers a card that does not expire... I really don't understand that statement.

I see the opposite. I see a "financial incentive" in forcing a student to take a full cave class to keep their intro card from expiring.

Is it really impossible for you guys to believe that there is at least one student out there who only wants to do intro level dives and has no want to do full cave dives thousands of feet back and doing decompression.

I really do think that intro level dives would be enough for me for my entire diving life. Is it possible that opinion could change after a few years? sure. But what if it didn't. What if I love doing intro level dives, am good at it, and have no interest in doing a dive past those limits, but "oh, wait, I HAVE to take full cave because my cards expiring" then your agency has just encouraged someone to dive beyond their comfort zone.

I really think you (not you specifically, I mean cave instructors in general) have a vested interest in selling one more class and an expiring card is one way to do that.

If you want to talk about people diving beyond the limits of their card that's one issue. They are not going to suddenly say "omg I will or won't, can or can't dive beyond the limits of my card" because of an expiration date on the back of it.