Training expiration?

[Redshift]

As for expiring registrations, both NACD and NSS-CDS have expiring intro cave and apprentice cave certifications.

Isn't it just Apprentice that expires? I think it makes sense since it's not a level per se, it's a break during instruction towards Full Cave.

I don't see a problem in a diver wanting to stop at the Intro level. If what they want is to do more limited penetrations and follow a main line, why not? But then it's Intro (which I think doesn't expire), not Apprentice. So it is possible to stop cave instruction at a certain level, not just in the middle of Full Cave and decide to remain there.

Divers can exceed their training at almost every certification level. The fact that a certification expires does not prevent that. And the mentioned cases of deaths of Intro divers wouldn't have been solved by having their certifications expire. They could have pushed the limits within the expire date of their certification. And I've read several accounts of Apprentice divers doing just that, because for a certain time, their limits are expanded to a point where it's very easy to go a bit further and hard for others to notice what they are doing.

It all boils down to attitude.

 

[kensuf]

How would you respond if I suggested that any open water certification should expire unless they started cavern diving in one year?
Would a reasonable response to that suggestion be "Some people just want to dive open water and should not be in caverns, and are ok with that"

How would you respond if I suggested that any cavern diver certification should expire unless they took intro in one year?
Would a reasonable response be "Some people just want to dive caverns and not do intro, and are ok with that"

I'm betting in his many years of diving, Jim Wyatt has probably taught quite a few cavern classes. By the logic presented here EVERY single cavern student that has ever taken cavern has gone on to full cave and does multiple jumps and traverses... I'm betting that is not the case.

I bet some are happy just diving caverns.

Jim says there is a "financial incentive" in having a class that offers a card that does not expire... I really don't understand that statement.

I see the opposite. I see a "financial incentive" in forcing a student to take a full cave class to keep their intro card from expiring.

Is it really impossible for you guys to believe that there is at least one student out there who only wants to do intro level dives and has no want to do full cave dives thousands of feet back and doing decompression.

I really do think that intro level dives would be enough for me for my entire diving life. Is it possible that opinion could change after a few years? sure. But what if it didn't. What if I love doing intro level dives, am good at it, and have no interest in doing a dive past those limits, but "oh, wait, I HAVE to take full cave because my cards expiring" then your agency has just encouraged someone to dive beyond their comfort zone.

I really think you (not you specifically, I mean cave instructors in general) have a vested interest in selling one more class and an expiring card is one way to do that.

If you want to talk about people diving beyond the limits of their card that's one issue. They are not going to suddenly say "omg I will or won't, can or can't dive beyond the limits of my card" because of an expiration date on the back of it.

Swampy,

Between 1995 and 1998 I was in the chair of the NACD's accident advisory committee, and it was my job to look at the accident statistics. This was also during the time that we started seeing the growth in trained cave divers that lacked recent experience, or partially trained cave divers that had decided to exceed their training. There have been enough incidents of people exceeding their training and experience that I believe it should be recognized and understood that partially trained cave divers frequently exceed their training limits, and they have a poor track record in doing so.

If a 67 year old retired woman, not your typical "testosterone driven macho" type wound up pushing beyond her training, then I would argue most people probably will. Not to be hypocritical on this front, I will also admit that I did a bunch of stupid stuff as an intro-cave diver that was well beyond the training I had received up to that point, and which was ultimately my motivation to continue on and finish my training.

In the interest of keeping this thread from turning into something that it shouldn't be, and anything that I write being misconstrued or taken out of context, and since we're local to each other, I'd like to suggest we get together and chat in person over a cup of coffee. I will be more than happy to answer all of your questions.

It all boils down to attitude.

And respect for the environment.

 

[lv2dive]

Let's be clear about this. This is the same guy who insisted (a few months ago) that it was A-OK for him to "run some string" between the ear and the eye and do a traverse, before he had any formal Cavern training. So I'd take any discussion of "no interest in doing full cave dives or complex navigation" with a grain of salt.

I disagree with your thinking, Jim. I plan to take intro, but I really don't have any interest in doing full cave dives or complex navigation such as the grand traverse, etc.

I think I would be perfectly happy doing intro level dives, and I think its unfair to be forced into going further by a training agency.

Think about this, if I get certifed and dive four safe cave dives every weekend for an entire year, then suddenly I'm incapable of diving the same dive the next day safely? really?

Why push someone into getting a certification to do longer, deeper and more complex dives if they would rather just do intro level dives?

edit: and you are saying they are going to wait a year, and then break the rules. I think if they are going to break the rules they are going to do it from day one, not wait till their card is expired.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Let's be clear about this. This is the same guy who insisted (a few months ago) that it was A-OK for him to "run some string" between the ear and the eye and do a traverse, before he had any formal Cavern training. So I'd take any discussion of "no interest in doing full cave dives or complex navigation" with a grain of salt.

Roger that Kate. Grain of salt taken....

 

[TracyN]

Yah take any thing Swampy says with a grain of salt. He thinks he can do anything without training including cave diving.

 

[The Chairman]

Who worries about the agency doing the cert? Not me. I worry about getting the right instructor and then I try to emulate that instructor's attitude in regards to skills and training. Who cares if it says NSSCDS, NACD or any of the wannabe agencies on your card? I've been diving caverns and caves for over ten years. I think it took me ten to finally finish full cave.

People are in too much of a rush to die. They short cut or side step their training thinking that they are so smart that they don't need it. Make no doubt about it: we'll be reading about you in accidents and incidents all too soon and none of us will be commenting on how smart you were.

 

[Tickler]

Troll or not he does have a good point or two in this case. If someone is diving beyond their limits then I think that is a problem stemming from their instructor not teaching them to respect limits, not how long they have been intro to cave. I also think that Intro would be a fine level for some divers to stop at, not everyone dives the same caves every weekend or gets bored so easily.

For me, one step at a time. I will get an intro certification this summer and see where I sit. It might be a few years more before I have a $1000+ to spend on full cave (again, starving college student here).
I want to thank you all for answering my questions and providing both sides of thinking on why they expire. Now that the thread has been answered, let's all move on before Swampy makes everyone hunt him down and strangle him.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

If someone is diving beyond their limits then I think that is a problem stemming from their instructor not teaching them to respect limits..

I do not agree this is usually the case. All we can do as instructors is to stress the importance of diving beyond their training.

If someone decides to break the rules after they are trained can you REALLY blame the instructor?

Many folks want to blame cave instructors for everything bad that happens, I have been seeing/hearing/reading this for years.

Go ahead and name an instructor who you know for a fact that has not stressed to a student the importance of not diving beyond their training. I do not think you can name one from the two mainline cave diver training agencies, NSS-CDS or NACD. Stressing the importance of this is an integral part of both training agencies guidelines. It is written into the standards.

 

[ucfdiver]

I really don't understand all the hoopla about expiring intro to cave cards. If you want to cave dive, take the classes. I cannot imagine someone who is interested in seeing caves so much so that they're dumping $2500+ on gear and training costs, yet only cares about seeing the cave with a gold line in it, and only until they hit an artificial turn pressure created only for training standard reasons.

Nearly everyone I know was breaking the intro limits before they took full cave. It's somewhat important to realize that cave diving was a class, and it was split up to accommodate work schedules. I think there's a period after intro (C1) where experience helps you get more out of apprentice/full (C2), but with every side passage you swim by, or every time you hit turn pressure near an interesting section of cave, you're more and more tempted.

 

[karstdvr]

Nearly everyone I know was breaking the intro limits before they took full cave. It's somewhat important to realize that cave diving was a class, and it was split up to accommodate work schedules. I think there's a period after intro (C1) where experience helps you get more out of apprentice/full (C2), but with every side passage you swim by, or every time you hit turn pressure near an interesting section of cave, you're more and more tempted.

I honestly think intro was set as more than a need to accomodate work schedules,because there are many certs where people can come back and complete,and cave diving is no different. Having different levels of certs is good because 1) people may not want to go beyond 1/3 single,and just do cave diving "lite" 2) but those who want to advance,stopping at this point and solidifying your skills with experience is prudent. You will get more out of the next level of training because the instructor doesn't have to address elementary skills issues.

Your honest and admit you broke the rules and you survived. I drove real fast down the interstate with out my seat belt on and survived,but I had no incident. The intro class gives you a basic skill set,but as most know cave diving is 50% skill and 50% mental,and at this point the person may have the skill to do things outside the training limits,but not address the problems that arise. This is VERY CLEARLY exemplified in that we have had more cave diving deaths in the last few years with people at the intro/cavern level exceeding their limits than any other group. If you remove medical issues related to cave diving accidents,then intro level stands up there as having more head stones.