Training can you do too much too soon?

[boulderjohn]

There is a value to Fish ID, and it has a lot to do with how you see, experience, and remember your dive.

Many decades ago, some researchers did some tests and decided that a certain ethnic group (I can't remember which) had some kind of biological problem that prevented them from seeing a certain color. Eventually they realized it was not that they couldn't see that color; it was rather that in their native habitat, that was not a color they encountered, so their language did not have a name for it. Not having a name for it had an effect on their perception and memory that made it seem as if they couldn't see it. The researchers eventually realized the importance of having a name for something. It allows you to pick it out from a group, observe it more clearly, see its details, and remember it. Learn the names for different fishes, and you will be able to pick them out from the mass of fish, see their details, and begin to observe their characteristic behaviors.

Observing dish flitting around a shallow reef is a different experience once you realize that those striped ones moving about erratically are sergeant majors trying to protect a batch of eggs--that purple splotch behind them. That tiny fish jumping at you is a damsel fish protecting the patch of algae it has been carefully cultivating. That bunch of little yellow fish are waiting for a bigger fish to come up to them, open its gills, and have the parasites cleaned off. (If you hang around for a while, you might get to see it.) That trunkfish feeding on the coral is first blasting it with a puff of water from its mouth to clean it off before picking out what it wants to eat. (Get really quiet and you can get close enough to see it, and it looks pretty cool.) That cowfish over there is following that big midnight parrotfish because when that parrot chomps down on a bit of reef, the resulting fragments floating about will have edible tidbits that the cowfish can dart in and nab.

When you are done with a dive like that and someone asks you what you saw, you will have a lot of memories to share.

Or you could say, "There was a bunch of fish."

 

[Kharon]

Does it not make sense that you should master the skills from your previous course before taking on more training?

I did SDI OW. SDI AOW required 5 more courses - 3 were mandatory: Deep (multiple dives), Dark (multiple dives), and Navigation (multiple dives) - 2 optional. I did Nitrox (only one non dive course allowed) and Search and Recovery. After taking those courses I was required to log 25 additional dives to get AOW. To even take the Solo course I had to have AOW and 100 additional dives.

I can't believe the PADI requirement for AOW. Complete three Adventure Dives (underwater photography, fish identification, etc.) and earn the Adventure Diver certification, a subgroup of the PADI Advanced Open Water Diver Course which requires 2 additional Adventure Dives. So you could choose 5 Adventure Dives that provide no actual additional diving skills and get AOW. Are you kidding me?

 

[boulderjohn]

Does it not make sense that you should master the skills from your previous course before taking on more training?

I did SDI OW. SDI AOW required 5 more courses - 3 were mandatory: Deep (multiple dives), Dark (multiple dives), and Navigation (multiple dives) - 2 optional. I did Nitrox (only one non dive course allowed) and Search and Recovery. After taking those courses I was required to log 25 additional dives to get AOW. To even take the Solo course I had to have AOW and 100 additional dives.

I can't believe the PADI requirement for AOW. Complete three Adventure Dives (underwater photography, fish identification, etc.) and earn the Adventure Diver certification, a subgroup of the PADI Advanced Open Water Diver Course which requires 2 additional Adventure Dives. So you could choose 5 Adventure Dives that provide no actual additional diving skills and get AOW. Are you kidding me?

The PADI system is consistent with the origins of the AOW certification. According to this history of NAUI, it was created by the Los Angeles County program first and then adopted by NAUI. PADI took it on later. Back then there was only one diving course (other than instructor), so it made sense to call it "advanced." The reason it was created was because of the perception that so many people were getting OW certified and then quitting diving altogether. The idea was to add 5 dives of different kinds with the twin goals of giving them some more useful skills and introducing them to different aspects of diving that might spur their interest and keep them diving. The goal was NOT to turn them into diving Gods.

The idea of having only one dive in an area is that it is a taste of something you might want to pursue. If you do want to pursue it, go ahead and take the full course. If you don't like it, don't take the full course and look elsewhere for something that will pique your interest. From that point of view, requiring the diver to take the full course in something they might not like or might not need is a waste of time and money. Let's take something that makes sense here in Colorado--altitude diving. If you are going to dive locally, it is good to know about that, but, believe me, you do not need a full course with multiple dives to get the information you need.

 

[Melanie White]

And it helps you in parts you need help with. A friend told me he learned a lot from the buoyancy dive that was never really done much on open water

 

[kmarks]

That would surprise me. I'm not an SSI instructor but I would be surprised if SSI allowed it.

R..

Page 64 of the SSI Training Standards (2018)

VII. COMBINING SPECIALTY PROGRAMS

Specialty programs may be combined, provided that all academic, pool/confined water and open water training
requirements for the applicable programs are completed.

Safe diving practices must be followed at all times, and the SSI Training Standards for each Specialty program must be met
when combining Specialties.

• If two (2) Specialty programs are combined, a minimum of three (3) open water training dives are required.
• If three (3) Specialty programs are combined, a minimum of four (4) open water training dives are required.
• If four (4) Specialty programs are combined, a minimum of five (5) open water training dives are required.

NOTE: If the Deep Diving Specialty program is combined with another Specialty, a minimum of three (3) training dives
deeper than 60 feet must be completed.

RECOMMENDATION: SSI Specialty programs are intended to provide students with a variety of experiences. Whenever
possible, conduct more training dives than the minimum required. Always take student needs, student ability and
environmental conditions into consideration when combining Specialty Programs and their training dives.​

 

[Diver0001]

Does it not make sense that you should master the skills from your previous course before taking on more training?

I did SDI OW. SDI AOW required 5 more courses - 3 were mandatory: Deep (multiple dives), Dark (multiple dives), and Navigation (multiple dives) - 2 optional. I did Nitrox (only one non dive course allowed) and Search and Recovery. After taking those courses I was required to log 25 additional dives to get AOW. To even take the Solo course I had to have AOW and 100 additional dives.

I can't believe the PADI requirement for AOW. Complete three Adventure Dives (underwater photography, fish identification, etc.) and earn the Adventure Diver certification, a subgroup of the PADI Advanced Open Water Diver Course which requires 2 additional Adventure Dives. So you could choose 5 Adventure Dives that provide no actual additional diving skills and get AOW. Are you kidding me?

In the PADI system, deep and navigation are mandatory. In the past "night diving" was also required but because the system is international and night diving is prohibited in one country then it has become optional for everyone at the AOW level. Where I live "night" is assumed at the AOW level. It's not brought as "optional".

If you were to ask me if one deep dive, one navigation dive and three other random in-water dives constitutes the skills you need to call yourself an "advanced" diver.... no. of course not. "Advanced" is clearly a misnomer. Do these dives have value? Yes, of course they do!

I didn't think of myself as an "advanced" diver until I had well over 1000 dives and was technically trained. Is that a realistic bar for all divers? No. It's the bar I held myself to but I know it's not realistic.

R..

 

[Diver0001]

Page 64 of the SSI Training Standards (2018)

VII. COMBINING SPECIALTY PROGRAMS

Specialty programs may be combined, provided that all academic, pool/confined water and open water training
requirements for the applicable programs are completed.

Safe diving practices must be followed at all times, and the SSI Training Standards for each Specialty program must be met
when combining Specialties.

• If two (2) Specialty programs are combined, a minimum of three (3) open water training dives are required.
• If three (3) Specialty programs are combined, a minimum of four (4) open water training dives are required.
• If four (4) Specialty programs are combined, a minimum of five (5) open water training dives are required.

NOTE: If the Deep Diving Specialty program is combined with another Specialty, a minimum of three (3) training dives
deeper than 60 feet must be completed.

RECOMMENDATION: SSI Specialty programs are intended to provide students with a variety of experiences. Whenever
possible, conduct more training dives than the minimum required. Always take student needs, student ability and
environmental conditions into consideration when combining Specialty Programs and their training dives.​

Well.... SSI was always a "PADI clone". It was clear from the beginning that they copied the PADI program and changed *JUST* enough to avoid being sued for copyright infringement.

The fact that they allow one dive to count for two different certifications is (a) moronic and (b) logical given the need to be "not PADI"

is this a good idea? No, of course not, It's moronic with a capital M.

R..

 

[boulderjohn]

"Advanced" is clearly a misnomer. Do these dives have value? Yes, of course they do!

As has been said many times, the name is a misnomer based on the common mistake of assuming that where you are at the moment in history marks the farthest things will go. When the AOW program was created, there was only one course other than the instructor training program, so when they added another, it made sense to call it advanced. Later on, they came up with the idea of a course for rescue, and then later they came up with specialty classes. Then someone got the idea of bundling all the regular courses and pretty much all of the specialty courses together and calling anyone who took pretty much all the instruction available a "master scuba diver." Today, with all the truly advanced training available, those names are laughable, but they are a legacy of a distant past.

It happens outside of scuba now. A few years ago we marveled at the clarity of "high definition video." So what do we call the stuff coming out now?

 

[TMHeimer]

As well, night diving may be very difficult in the far North where there is no real night in Summer.

 

[RainPilot]

RAID equivalent is called Advanced 35, the "35" is the depth limit in metres.

1. Confined Water evaluation session, plus any skills/ techniques not done before eg primary donate, reg recovery using the secondary, non-silting kick, S-drills etc (aimed at crossovers, this is done in OW). New addition is DSMB deployment from depth, bringing up unresponsive diver from depth.
2. Buoyancy dive. All stops etc to be held within 1.5m (5 feet) and no contact with the bottom for any reason.
3. Navigation dive (compass triangles, distance measurement etc, intro to mapping)
4. Rescue dive. Self-rescue, identifying issues with other divers and self, simulated emergency and failure scenarios
5. Deep dive 1. Min depth 25m, max 30m. Gas planning with 1/3rds, 1/2s, rock bottom. Narcosis management, simulated deco obligation.
6. Deep dive 2. Min 30m max 35m. Same as before but more scenario based.
7. Optional speciality dive. I almost always do Night/Limited vis but it is student choice. This can be done as dive 4 if needed.

No dives may be combined for any specialities UNLESS it is specifically stipulated and that is rare. For example, side mount can be done in conjunction with any course as long as the minimum hours for BOTH courses are met. SM is 3 hours OW and 1 hours CW so that needs to be added to the course being combined.

No increase in depth allowed in combination so if you want to do Deep and SM together, you need to do the SM stuff at your certified depth before going deeper.

There is a course called Explorer 30 which is more similar to the other AOW courses, it has the first deep dive and can be credited toward the Adv35 if done in a reasonable timeframe and the skills are evaluated satisfactory in the CW session.

RAID does not have "Adventure Dives". The only way to do an official dive is if you are enrolled on the course and have completed the theory and exams. It is annoying at times, because I can't take an OW diver on a 30m wreck we have here, regardless of how thoroughly I brief them etc etc. I do understand why it is there and I think it does have a value so I live with it.