To those considering an OW class...

[FIXXERVI6]

I havnt got a camera so unfortunately I can't show you a pic, but my students are trimmed out when they leave my classes.

If thats the case I seriously doubt you are shipping out divers on an express class method.

What do people think about combining classes in my Padi example?

Say take a standard Padi OW class, add in Nitrox, some specialties like night diver, bouancy, whatever, and you stretch it out a bit, when you start teaching nitrox and the other add ons that should be part of standard OW, you keep hitting the pool and comprehensivly work on skills, no dives required to learn nitrox, but during the nitrox academic work, you STILL perform ow training to master skills, don't hand over the OW card until the very end even tho they may have reached the "minimum" in a time period laid out by the agency, at the end of the time period you end up with a diver that has all the academic knowledge they should have right out of the box, and as an add on they have a lot more practice time than the average OW diver, its a win win situation, the diver gets their moneys worth because their "education/training" was broad not just here stick this in your mouth, breath, here is your card, and they get a lot more pool time in, the dive shop wins because they just sold all those classes at once, to make it work it would have to be marketed and discover scuba would have to be pushed HARD because people won't commit to a training regimin like that unless they know they want to do more than "try" save the discover scuba for trying. This would allow a shop to still certify divers to "agency standards" and at the same time give a new open water dive more knowledge and skills when they hit OW than the average bear.

 

[FIXXERVI6]

Call BS all you want, but some of us actually manage to train divers who can maintain horizontal trim and neutral bouyancy. For me, it's just about the most important thing to learn and I start teaching it the first night. It's all about the instructor not wasting precious pool time on skills that CAN be taught in five minutes. Now ya got me going...

And you've never seen it because all the instructors around you S U C K ! Okay?

You may be able to teach it in 5 minutes but it takes a diver practice to get it down, thats where more pool time would come in handy before you turn them loose someplace where they can do real damange.

Even tho you can't silt out a pool, you can learn proper trim in a pool, after my OW class I went back to the teacher and asked for pool time by myself (I mean just not taking the classes just getting in the pool with the classes) just to practice, not that I felt I was a bad diver and really needed it, because I wanted to be a GREAT diver, I spent HOURS on boyancy, mask removal mid water and putting back on, stuff like that, made a world of difference, I can't help but think if an instructor took those few extra steps and extra pool time it would make a world of difference with a lot of divers, get them off their knees as you can't just plop down on coral to clear your mask, etc etc, the other thing that alwasy got me is when people started their dives, they go straight to the bottom and sit, then from sitting to into a swimming position, don't allow that, make them stop just short of the bottom, of course all of this could be taught with the extra pool time to allow for skill refinment and practice, because it takes time.

My dive instructor placed a lot of importance on trim and keeping the fins up, but I see a hole lot that don't, or the students just don't care/try, if you really do push that as one of the most important things and are able to produce divers that can achieve this out of OW then my hats off to you because I sure don't see very many people in the water not plowing the bottom, and as far as the instructors around me, I've seen the worst of it on dive vacations.

When I see stuff like this and people talking it makes me think of DIR and what they tried to achive, I'd like to know what more they could have done for diving if it wasn't for things like GI3's attitude and their one way is the only way attitude, because those guys have some great stuff beyond that garb. (thats not a slam nor a support call for DIR, its just that some of their ideas are REALLY good)

 

[Azza]

If thats the case I seriously doubt you are shipping out divers on an express class method.

What do people think about combining classes in my Padi example?

Say take a standard Padi OW class, add in Nitrox, some specialties like night diver, bouancy, whatever, and you stretch it out a bit, when you start teaching nitrox and the other add ons that should be part of standard OW, you keep hitting the pool and comprehensivly work on skills, no dives required to learn nitrox,<snip>

I have done with the express method but the key is small classes. I teach independantly now for that reason.

Your idea is a great one. It's pretty much what I do now. I still do the nitrox dives and teach SAC and gas planning in that phase.
The major problem is that you are not allowed to teach "above standards" in PADI classes. So you have to be inventive...

 

[Azza]

I forgot to add...

The main problem with that is that most people are not interested. They want quick and easy and done.

I have a good group together at the moment luckily

 

[FIXXERVI6]

I forgot to add...

The main problem with that is that most people are not interested. They want quick and easy and done.

I have a good group together at the moment luckily

yea thats why you would have to offer both methods otherwise a shop would put their operation in danger

 

[msedivingdoc]

[/QUOTE]
I did jump through beigger whoops than most of the OW divers out there, and when I hit the water I noticed very quickly that my time spent was worth it, also, what if the option of extended training caused a small percentage of the divers that get cranked out to be better, that will INCREASE the overall diver awarness that hey, maybe I need more training cause joe over there took that extended class and he's rockin on.

Why can't I compare it to current requirements, I have the same card as everyone else that took an express NAUI OW class, some of the people I dive with also took classes in the university setting and guess what, even fresh out of class they hit the water and you can see very quickly the difference, its not super man compared to super newbie, but there is a difference, is it because they made it more regorous to meet a phys ed course, I think not, it was total time under water and being taught before being turned loose to open water, I never had to do push ups or swim double the speed of the agency standard.

What I'm getting at is not changing the dive industry as a whole, but have a shop or two step up and offer up a CHOICE, maybe over time with choices the market will push dive training to the longer schedules, but how can you even give it a chance when there is no option for it.[/QUOTE]

You have already presented the forum a viable option that is already in place. Take the daggon class offered by a university!!! If someone wants the long drawn out version, then a semister course will do.

Another solution... as instructors offer the extended class.

In reality the way things are are here to stay. Those of us wishing for safe divers that don't wreak the reefs need to just nudge the rest towards the extra certifications. The other option is for a diver to just read and practice everything that is good on this board possible. It is all about personal responsibility. I for one say if you are stupid enough to dive to 130 ft after ow certification, then great thin the herd. Natural Selection can be a mother...of nature.

 

[Dive-aholic]

I have done with the express method but the key is small classes. I teach independantly now for that reason.

...

Same here. It's one of the reasons, anyway...

Small classes - no more than 4 students makes it possible to do an express class. Most of my classes are 2 students. I have a lot more 1-1 time with each of the students, but less time overall in the pool and classroom. It's just not needed with that size class.

As for pool time, I've found that students start to get bored after the 1st session. They get in, they learn skills, they demonstrate skills, they have play time. The 1st play time will almost always last until 500psi. After that, they get tired or playing around in the pool. Who can blame them? I certify in a lake. Crashing into the bottom doesn't really matter. Next month we'll be walking on the bottom anyway because the water level is dropping right now. We get in the water, spend 5-10 minutes checking off skills, depending on the dive, and go diving. Actual dive time is almost always more than 30 minutes, not counting skill time. That's when we work on trim, buoyancy, sculling, etc. On our next OW class I'll try to remember to bring a camera or have my wife bring it and snap some photos of our students. They aren't perfect, but they're horizontal, off the bottom, and not sculling.

 

[kirwoodd]

well,
I just got my OW cert, so I can comment.

The SSI OW cert doesnt scare you enough. I think its ok to have an abbreviated class (and I feel liike SSI was) as long as the students know what they are getting, which is basic information and no skills. The skills come later. I have been diving several times since I got my cert, all with very experienced divers in less than 40 feet of water. Looking at my dive log, my average depth so far has been 30'. (not including my OW dives) I got my lobster permit and we hunt lobster (none so far) and look at rocks. Yeah, you guys think thats boring, but MAN to this n00b its AWESOME! Hey this past weekend I saw my boat anchor under water! woohoo! my first dive scared the **** out of me, since then, not so much.

You only need to read the n00b threads that ask questions like "hey, I just got my cert, can I dive a wreck at 100'?" to know that they didnt get the right message in the class.

For me, the abbreviated class was perfect, I got to spend a weekend learning the basic information and a weekend playing in the water. <shrug> It was fun. Then I spend the rest of the summer diving with experienced divers learning/practing my skills and asking stoopid questions.

I guess that I basically agree that the class was too abbreviated, but on the other hand, had it been an 8 week extravaganza, I may not have done it. However, having taking the abbreviated class and then diving with experienced divers, I dont feel like I am in any trouble.

The question for me is, how many new divers dive with other new divers instead of experienced divers?

OMG!
case in point:
http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=153024

 

[King Kong Matt]

I think its ok to have an abbreviated class (and I feel liike SSI was) as long as the students know what they are getting, which is basic information and no skills.

First off, 1) congratulations on your entry into the greatest sport in the world and it's always nice to see another diver from Red Sox Nation.

Having said that, I can't see the point of an abbreviated class that offers "no skills". I just don't see how that is worth the consumer's money. They are taking what is purported to be a basic open water class - this class should provide them with the skills (all the skills) that are necessary to do recreational open water dives in my opinion.

Again, congratulations on your recent certification!

 

[jbd]

I call BS

if its fairly easy to teach how come I've never seen it? show me a photo of an standard open water diver doing that

Why would you call BS
Teaching excellent bouyancy control and trim is not at all hard to do in an OW course.

The key is that the instructor must know what it is and be able to dive it.
The next thing is to insure that the students are properly weighted according to physics as oposed to a guesstimate.
Thirdly, from the very beginning the students must start out in a horizontal position in the water. Concurrently the instructor and any othr assisting staff must be hovering or moving in a horizontal attitude at all times unless standing in the shallow water to give verbal instruction/comments.
Fourth, maximize the time the students will be practicing diving in a horizontal attitude.
This is done by giving them constructive exercises to do instead of free time to flounder about hoping for an epiphany in bouyancy control. I wrote a booklet about this for use in a bouyancy control seminar. By the end of a 6 session course all my students could move up or down in very small increments(inches) and hold their position while being presented with a variety of problems.

Basically they are working on bouyancy and trim every minute they are in the water while we only need to focus on mask clearing skills and regulator skills for a relatively short time.

Its just not that hard to teach good diving skills.