To those considering an OW class...

[BiggDawg]

Diving instruction when it began was 100 hours and 12 open water dives. (1953)

Of course, those were the days of double hose regulators, and before the BCD was even developed. Those were the days of J snorkels and high volume masks with purge valves, and the old Voit Viking full-foot fin.
Is that a reasonable comparison to current situations? Certainly technology, and improved skills, have changed some of that, no? After all, it took more training to be a Mercury Astronaut than it took John Glenn to ride along on the Shuttle...

When I became an Instructor it had dropped to 40 hours and 5 open water dives (1976).

Would seem a reasonable amount of time, certainly. But let's put that in perspective. 40 hours is what a typical semester-long 3-semester hour course in college provides in class time. Even the University scuba course, typically a 1 (or 2) semester-hour PE course, doesn't even require that currently.

I tested a couse for DEMA in 1982 that was 18 hours and recommended against it (the PADI tester thought it was just peachy).

I'm with you. Can any one even learn to be safe in that time? What does it teach, "Trust your computer, it's smarter than you are? Buckle it on your left wrist. (NO, your other left wrist.)"

So now where back to the 18 hour couse again.

Actually, I dove with an insta-buddy in the late 1980's. He and his wife had each been certified by YMCA, and all they had were two open water dives.

 

[Matsya]

I am curious to learn from veterans of diving if they were taught or trained in as exhaustive a manner as a majority of the posts here recommend. If not, how did you acquire the skills that are the result of the training you recommend should be included in courses today?

 

[loosebits]

This has been a really good discussion. Some very interesting points were made including some things I never considered such as divers only getting certified for that one vacation (I couldn't imagine anyone not being completely obsessed ).

The intent of my post was not to call for an end to the accelerated OW class. That horse really has been beaten to death and as many have agreed, this has been driven by the market, not by bad instructors or evil certification agencies. What I wanted was to get the attention of the unknown numbers of potential divers reading this forum and hopefully persuade a few of them to seek out better training.

I also wanted to conscript my fellow divers to help evangelize this message. Who knows how many lurkers are out there who are curious about diving. Maybe if those who agree with me, in whole or in part, and feel that a longer class will generally mean a better diver would occasionally bring this subject up in this forum we can make a couple of better divers and build a market for better classes.

Let's talk to people who want to learn to dive. Don't tell them that if they take class so-an-so they are going to kill themselves but tell them the truth, longer classes make better, happier divers.

Perhaps put something in your signature, not the latest PADI quip but something inviting them to ask you questions and give them the chance to learn from what you did right and what you did wrong.

This is a very popular site and I believe that if enough of us got behind this effort, maybe we can make a difference (sorry for the cliche). Not a big one but something. Besides (warning, more cliche to follow, get your doggie bags), if we just save one would-be drop out (for whatever reason) and instead make him into someone like many of us, a diving fanatic, isn't that worth the occasional thread in this forum or a comment in our signatures?

Would anyone be interested in this?

 

[dherbman]

Nice troll.

 

[King Kong Matt]

Don't tell them that if they take class so-an-so they are going to kill themselves but tell them the truth, longer classes make better, happier divers.

I try to do exactly that when people ask me about my diving...I tell them that it is like anything else in this world and that you get what you pay for. If you want a Hyundai, you can pay Hyundai prices and you'll get Hyundai quality. If, on the other hand, you want a Benz, you have to pay Benz money but you get Benz quality.

No offense intended to happy Hyundai owners. No Hyundais were harmed in the process of typing this post.

 

[freediver]

This has been a really good discussion. Some very interesting points were made including some things I never considered such as divers only getting certified for that one vacation (I couldn't imagine anyone not being completely obsessed ).

The intent of my post was not to call for an end to the accelerated OW class. That horse really has been beaten to death and as many have agreed, this has been driven by the market, not by bad instructors or evil certification agencies. What I wanted was to get the attention of the unknown numbers of potential divers reading this forum and hopefully persuade a few of them to seek out better training.

I also wanted to conscript my fellow divers to help evangelize this message. Who knows how many lurkers are out there who are curious about diving. Maybe if those who agree with me, in whole or in part, and feel that a longer class will generally mean a better diver would occasionally bring this subject up in this forum we can make a couple of better divers and build a market for better classes.

Let's talk to people who want to learn to dive. Don't tell them that if they take class so-an-so they are going to kill themselves but tell them the truth, longer classes make better, happier divers.

Perhaps put something in your signature, not the latest PADI quip but something inviting them to ask you questions and give them the chance to learn from what you did right and what you did wrong.

This is a very popular site and I believe that if enough of us got behind this effort, maybe we can make a difference (sorry for the cliche). Not a big one but something. Besides (warning, more cliche to follow, get your doggie bags), if we just save one would-be drop out (for whatever reason) and instead make him into someone like many of us, a diving fanatic, isn't that worth the occasional thread in this forum or a comment in our signatures?

Would anyone be interested in this?

Perhaps a longer course would make a better diver but shouldn't the emphasis be on more thorough teaching which may or may not make for a longer course? I am sure we all have our ideas of what should be included or eliminated from an OW course (I certainly do). However, the addition of filler just to make a longer course isn't going to necessarily result in better divers. This is where thorough teaching, regardless of course length, plays a huge role.
I think the thread you've started is very well-intentioned and I also believe that the potential dive candidate plays a large role in the overall concern of dive training. When you first developed the interest in diving, how many of you pursued certification? Now that you are seasoned how many of you realize that what you really sought was dive training? The certification was just a benefit of the training. It's that after the fact mentality that makes this a difficult issue in convincing dive candidates of the need for training. It would appear that the industry is marketing certification under the guise of of it being adequate training.
Hmmm.......so where do we begin?........

 

[King Kong Matt]

Hmmm.......so where do we begin?........

I think we begin with the people that have the power to set expectations among trainees...the shops and the instructors. They have to make clear what it is they are selling it and why they package what they do in the way they do.

 

[jbichsel]

Without changing agency standards from what they are now, if we could just get instructors to step up and accept the term "mastery" for what it is intended to be, I believe we would automatically have longer courses, with more dives. I don't find it all that difficult to say, "I know you tried hard and you made good improvement, but I think you have not yet mastered these skills. We need to get you back in the pool again to work on these until they become second nature and you have mastered them." What's wrong with that?

As to the dumbing down of various educational standards, I could site many examples. But some of my posting now may be considered long, much less what I could show by going down that road.

 

[Azza]

I call BS

if its fairly easy to teach how come I've never seen it? show me a photo of an standard open water diver doing that

I havnt got a camera so unfortunately I can't show you a pic, but my students are trimmed out when they leave my classes.

 

[neil]

I call BS

if its fairly easy to teach how come I've never seen it? show me a photo of an standard open water diver doing that

Call BS all you want, but some of us actually manage to train divers who can maintain horizontal trim and neutral bouyancy. For me, it's just about the most important thing to learn and I start teaching it the first night. It's all about the instructor not wasting precious pool time on skills that CAN be taught in five minutes. Now ya got me going...

And you've never seen it because all the instructors around you S U C K ! Okay?