To those considering an OW class...

[divingjd]

Frankly if I had a shop I'd not check for certification before filling or selling, you take on a liability by doing so that is nor required by law. Just a big sign saying that diving is dangerous with a similar warning on the receipt.

You don't take on any liability by checking cards before selling gear or giving air fills. If you have a policy to check, fail to check, and sell gear or air to an uncertified person, then you might be liable, but you''ve probably got the same problem if your policy is not to check. If I were the plaintiff's lawyer for a diving accident case involving an uncertified person and I found out that somebody had sold the victim life support equipment or given an air fill without checking for a card, I would start looking for a nice vacation home someplace. That would not be a tough case to win.

On another note, I have been wondering for a week when you guys were going to get around to talking about starting your own certification agency. I did not expect anybody to suggest issuing cards individually or doing away with cards.

If things are as bad as you say, why don't you start your own agency? Mike Ferrara has stopped teaching because of the problems he perceives, and then tells everybody else that they should change PADI. If you really think they are cranking out certifications for people who are totally unsafe and are going to kill themselves, and you know the better way that will make comfortable, confident, safe divers, then isn't the logical answer to either change PADI yourself or start your own agency? On the theories expressed in this thread, you could revolutionize the industry. Your course and instructional methods would attract the students and set the standard in the industry and everyone would be forced to follow along.

A lot of the comments here have involved PADI and whether it is OK to teach more than the PADI standards. I've never taken a PADI course and don't know their standards, so I can't say. It would surprise me if there weren't other agencies that would permit you to teach above the minimum standards. I know that SSI permits it. SSI says the course is 20% content specified by the instructor. I don't know if you think that 20% gives you the freedom you need, but I'm pretty sure you guys aren't ready to be SSI instructors anyway, because SSI requires shop affiliation. Isn't there some agency other than PADI that will let you be an independent instructor and teach the class you want to teach? Why are you guys complaining about it and insisting that everybody else do something about it? At least loosebits and FIXXERVI6 are doing something about it, asking people to ask them before they sign up for an OW class and encouraging them to seek out a more comprehensive class. They are trying to educate the students, who otherwise would not have any idea what to look for, other than faster and cheaper, which sounds good to almost all of them.

I don't agree with everything you guys are saying, but you've got a lot of good ideas, and you seem to care it about it, so why not write the book, start the agency, issue your own cards? Don't just drop out or fight a losing battle with PADI.

 

[loosebits]

Well, first of all I am very pleased that this thread has gotten as much attention as it has. Also, I am glad to see that for the most part, it hasn't degrading into the usual agency bashing.

Now I keep mentioning this every now and then but I'd like to make sure everyone sees it as this has become an extremely long thread:

Please, if you agree with me that for whatever reason many OW classes aren't adequately preparing divers for open water diving, keep bringing this subject up in the forums, talk to your LDS and prospective divers you meet, put an invitation in your signature that either invites them to read this thread or the many out there like it or simply invite them to PM you about what they should be looking for in an OW class.

So far several prospective divers have PMed me just for that. Even a dive shop in my area (Surface Interval Scuba) has decided to start offering more extensive classes on par with a 16 week university class. Help me build a market for this kind of class by encouraging newer divers to demand (and pay for) this kind of training.

 

[Thalassamania]

You don't take on any liability by checking cards before selling gear or giving air fills. If you have a policy to check, fail to check, and sell gear or air to an uncertified person, then you might be liable, but you''ve probably got the same problem if your policy is not to check. If I were the plaintiff's lawyer for a diving accident case involving an uncertified person and I found out that somebody had sold the victim life support equipment or given an air fill without checking for a card, I would start looking for a nice vacation home someplace. That would not be a tough case to win.

Legal counsel suggests otherwise

On another note, I have been wondering for a week when you guys were going to get around to talking about starting your own certification agency. I did not expect anybody to suggest issuing cards individually or doing away with cards.

That's just becuse you're too young to remember what the word "certification" was coined to mean.

If things are as bad as you say, why don't you start your own agency? Mike Ferrara has stopped teaching because of the problems he perceives, and then tells everybody else that they should change PADI. If you really think they are cranking out certifications for people who are totally unsafe and are going to kill themselves, and you know the better way that will make comfortable, confident, safe divers, then isn't the logical answer to either change PADI yourself or start your own agency? On the theories expressed in this thread, you could revolutionize the industry. Your course and instructional methods would attract the students and set the standard in the industry and everyone would be forced to follow along. .

I have no need for another agency, it would not help me, or effect me, in any way.

A lot of the comments here have involved PADI and whether it is OK to teach more than the PADI standards. I've never taken a PADI course and don't know their standards, so I can't say. It would surprise me if there weren't other agencies that would permit you to teach above the minimum standards. I know that SSI permits it. SSI says the course is 20% content specified by the instructor. I don't know if you think that 20% gives you the freedom you need, but I'm pretty sure you guys aren't ready to be SSI instructors anyway, because SSI requires shop affiliation. Isn't there some agency other than PADI that will let you be an independent instructor and teach the class you want to teach? Why are you guys complaining about it and insisting that everybody else do something about it? At least loosebits and FIXXERVI6 are doing something about it, asking people to ask them before they sign up for an OW class and encouraging them to seek out a more comprehensive class. They are trying to educate the students, who otherwise would not have any idea what to look for, other than faster and cheaper, which sounds good to almost all of them.

I think that their campaign is wonderful and I wish them the best of luck. The problem is that there is no real alternative to send people to, except for some rather time-intensive University based programs, some very expensive instructors who operate independent of any of the agencies and the kool-aid gang.

I don't agree with everything you guys are saying, but you've got a lot of good ideas, and you seem to care it about it, so why not write the book, start the agency, issue your own cards? Don't just drop out or fight a losing battle with PADI.

I've won my battle, I did so the minute I decided not to play any more. Each of us is capable of doing the same as soon as they realize that the Emperor is marching down the street bare a*s*s.

 

[loosebits]

I think that their campaign is wonderful and I wish them the best of luck. The problem is that there is no real alternative to send people to, except for some rather time-intensive University based programs, some very expensive instructors who operate independent of any of the agencies and the kool-aid gang.

Thanks. I agree that most of the time there is no real alternative (although in response to this thread, a LDS has decided to offer a very extensive class, http://www.siscuba.com/Chaetodon Open Water Training.htm). But at least by educating the pre-certified perhaps we can get people asking their LDS if they offer any longer classes and hopefully get market pressures (however feeble) to work for us instead of against us.

 

[Thalassamania]

I was just PMed, to my chagrin I forgot the one real alternative (for a few folks) the LA County Advanced Diver Program.

 

[SparticleBrane]

One of the thing I love about the university class I took (and currently volunteer for) is that the instructors are all "doers", as BG told us about earlier. The instructor I had works part time off the NC coast as a mate on a dive boat, and spearfishes to supplement his income. He also river dives constantly; I believe he is fossil-obsessed...
Not only are they doers, they can all qualify as having truly mastered the skills, and hold the students to a much higher standard than the standard OW course.

The other thing I love about our course is the use of video to aid as a tool. We have several underwater video cameras that we use to tape the students performing skills. Their underwater swim, mask/snorkel clear, and cold water treatment are all taped at a bare minimum. Usually their UW kicks and hovering are also taped. They are usually recorded to a Tivo immediately so that the students can see exactly what they looked like right after performing the skill. After the class, the videos are edited and then posted on the class website so that each student may download the video and watch themselves underwater for critiquing. All students can see each other student's videos.
All skills taught have also been recorded previously by the instructors or volunteers and are posted on the course website; all students are required to watch. There are a good 20-30 skill videos posted. The students can watch both their own skills and then compare them to what they're supposed to look like.
^ That's all for the OW/Nitrox class. They might have 4 or 5 videos taken. For the rescue class, we were taped almost every class period, so I have ~20ish videos of myself from that class. It's quite thorough.
None of the skills done are "5-minute skills". What do you consider to be a 5-minute skill? Mask clearing? Snorkel clearing? We spend an entire 2-hour pool period working on that.

To loosebits--we spend about three weeks, perhaps more, working on skin diving skills. The students are taught to scissor kick only on skin diving. When on scuba we teach them to use frog kicking almost exclusively. While we do have some students that struggle, most have a pretty good concept of trim, buoyancy, and frog kicking. They might not look like an accomplished caver (which is to be expected for a basic OW/Nitrox student), but they do look pretty decent.

 

[jbd]

I find the idea of no c-cards intriguing, but still wonder if there doesn't need to be some sort of check for buying some gear or going on some dives.

I was just going to ask about requiring c-cards to buy regulators, but relaized that if you buy online or from eBay, chances are you're not required to show a card.

It worries me that there could be a scenario that people without any training at all could just jump in the water and start diving and dieing. At least with the current situation there appears to be the idea that training is required.

Of course in many ways, today's minimum standards are nearly like no training at all.

Regulators and tanks aren't the equipment that will most likely get a diver hurt or dead.
Using them requires little more than the ability to breathe.

There is only one piece of gear that it would make any sense to card someone to buy and that would be the BC regardless of type i.e jacket, back inflate BP/wings horse collar. This is the one piece that really has a direct corollation to diver safety and requires skill and training to use properly. As you noted though especially with buying online there is no need to show a card.

There are indeed many people who dive with no training beyond, "this part goes in your mouth and you just breathe through it". I know several.

 

[Dive-aholic]

No more after hour fills ay Bill R's?

Something that came about after the accident?

I haven't been down there since late 04 when I found out that I was losing my job.

I fill at Kathy's when I'm over that way. East has a fence around the fill station and around the property.

That's just shameful!

Most shops fill tanks for paintballers. Just write "paint ball" on your tanks. That won't hurt your dive.

Excellent idea! However, they might question why I want hydrocarbon free air.

Visa is the only card a diver should need.

I agree completely!

 

[Dive-aholic]

...On another note, I have been wondering for a week when you guys were going to get around to talking about starting your own certification agency. I did not expect anybody to suggest issuing cards individually or doing away with cards.

If things are as bad as you say, why don't you start your own agency? Mike Ferrara has stopped teaching because of the problems he perceives, and then tells everybody else that they should change PADI. If you really think they are cranking out certifications for people who are totally unsafe and are going to kill themselves, and you know the better way that will make comfortable, confident, safe divers, then isn't the logical answer to either change PADI yourself or start your own agency? On the theories expressed in this thread, you could revolutionize the industry. Your course and instructional methods would attract the students and set the standard in the industry and everyone would be forced to follow along.

A lot of the comments here have involved PADI and whether it is OK to teach more than the PADI standards. I've never taken a PADI course and don't know their standards, so I can't say. It would surprise me if there weren't other agencies that would permit you to teach above the minimum standards. I know that SSI permits it. SSI says the course is 20% content specified by the instructor. I don't know if you think that 20% gives you the freedom you need, but I'm pretty sure you guys aren't ready to be SSI instructors anyway, because SSI requires shop affiliation. Isn't there some agency other than PADI that will let you be an independent instructor and teach the class you want to teach? Why are you guys complaining about it and insisting that everybody else do something about it? At least loosebits and FIXXERVI6 are doing something about it, asking people to ask them before they sign up for an OW class and encouraging them to seek out a more comprehensive class. They are trying to educate the students, who otherwise would not have any idea what to look for, other than faster and cheaper, which sounds good to almost all of them.

I don't agree with everything you guys are saying, but you've got a lot of good ideas, and you seem to care it about it, so why not write the book, start the agency, issue your own cards? Don't just drop out or fight a losing battle with PADI.

What do you think the average American wants. They want easy. A new agency that offers an extensive diving course will go nowhere. All that effort is better focused on trying to make a difference in our small corner. I make a difference with every student I teach...at least I hope I do. And I believe a lot more instructors, especially the ones here on the board are doing the same. Maybe some day things will change, but today isn't the day. Most people don't want to, or won't spare the time, to do more when they can just go down the street and do the "same" course in 2 weekends. If they could learn how to dive in a drive thru they would!

 

[neil]

Isn't there some agency other than PADI that will let you be an independent instructor and teach the class you want to teach?

NAUI