To those considering an OW class...

[Walt1957]

I don't think you are going to change the "do it now, do it fast, do it cheap" mentality of many people looking for OW certification. Therefore you will not change the agency viewpoint about it. They will provide what the customer wants, within their ability to escape liability.

What would be nice is if someone would provide real classes for those of us wanting to upgrade our initial OW training and improve our skills. That might be something of a niche market, but it would be a valuable offering that is not currently available on a broad scale. It doesn't take long after OW certification to realize that there is still a lot to learn. I would think that anybody who went into it with a serious intention of really diving would be thrilled to find out that there was a next level class that might actually teach them something useful. I know that some might argue that DIRF is just that, but it misses the mark as far as mass appeal. I think the Essentials class sounds like what I was looking for, but with only one location that makes it localized for the most part.

 

[jbd]

walt1957,
I do have such a class. It is intended for people who realize that their current level of skill isn't quite enough and they want a more efficient way to improve beyond self discovery of the skills in an ungiuded way.

 

[divingjd]

An instructor should know better. While it is industry standards to not sell breathing gas to non-certified folks, there is no such standards regarding equipment sales! Review the PADI facility requirements yourself. heck, give the folks at PADI a call. Grandma walks in to buy a reg as a Christmas gift...do you not sell it to her because she isn't a diver? What about all the online equipment sales?

Hell, you don't even need to be a certified divers to own a dive shop and then you buy life support equipment by the truckload!

As I said, an instructor should know better.]

Why? Why do we need an agency? Do you go to an agency to learn mountain climbing or other potentially dangerous sports? This agency nonsense is stricktly a diving thing.

Valid thoughts to examine. I was a OADI instructor and owned a PADI dive shop. though I tried, I was totally unseccessful in having any influence at all on PADI.

As for starting an agency...I already own and run a business and have niether the time, resources or inclination to go back into the dive business.

I also don't care anything at all about saving or fixing the industry. I share my experiences in the dive industry and the opinions that grew from them strictly for the purpose of providing information to others who might make use of it. Other divers and students of diving concern me because I view them as peers and I went through many of the same problems they have but I have no interest in helping the agencies. They already got enough from me.

This board and specifically this forum is about education and sharing ideas so there are lots of us contributing to the education of others. Personally, I can't ask local divers to consult me before signing up for a class because the three closest class that I could recommend is in Detroit, Ohio (I think) and Kentucky. I'm in Indiana and can't really recommend anything local that I know of. I will say that one local shop has new owners so I can't say anything about them one way or the other.[QUQOTE]

I don't agree with everything you guys are saying, but you've got a lot of good ideas, and you seem to care it about it, so why not write the book, start the agency, issue your own cards? Don't just drop out or fight a losing battle with PADI.

For me, the book is still a possibility. My wife and I discussed it again the other day and I still really can't decide exactly how to approach it. Specifically, I haven't really defined the scope of it.

I won't issue my own cards because I'm not goint to put the effort into searching for an insurance carrier who would be willing to provide UW liability insurance.

I already addressed the agency issue some but the first tier customer of the agency is the shop and instructor. Shops want to certify lots of divers and sell equipment. They won't take well to anything thet they percieve as making that harder. In the current business model that's most common in the dive industry an agency that I might invision wouldn't generate any interest at all.

Why shouldn't we just drop out of the fight and is there a fight at all? As much as I like diving and as interested as I am in dive instruction, there are other things in life. As far as world problems that we can devote ourselves to trying to fix, this doesn't rate all that high on the scale. I mean really...it's a few fairly wealthy people who buy some fancy toys, a certification, make a mess of the underwater environment where they dive and a few who get hurt doing something they chose to do. Small stuff really. I guess, in all honesty, spending a little time here on the board discussing the issue and some time at dive sites rubbing elbows with other divers, including new divers as well as instructors, is about all I'm willing to invest in the matter beyond what I've already invested. For the record, though, I did spend a few years and about all my personal resources running a dive shop with the intention of offering an alternative. I ran out of steam and money.[/QUOTE]
As an instructor I should know better? And I should ask PADI? I don't think so.

(1) I am not a PADI instructor. I am not going to ask PADI.

(2) I am a lawyer. As a lawyer, it strikes me as a really bad idea, for a dive business whose business includes certifying divers, to sell life support or gas to somebody who is not certified. From a legal perspective, I can't see any way to distinguish between selling gas and selling gear. As far as I can see, selling gear to granma to give as a present could be a problem. If you know it's going to one of your customers who you know to be a certified diver, maybe it's different, maybe not. As for the internet, I think that's a problem. There are internet drugstores, too, and some of them sell without prescriptions. Does the fact that they do this mean they aren't liable?

(3) Earlier in the thread somebody (I think Thalassamania) said legal counsel had advised him on the question of checking cards and said it was better not to. I would be very interested in hearing the reasoning on that, and not to argue about it, but to understand it. I get convinced that I am wrong on these kinds of things all the time. The way I see it, if your policy is to check for cards and you follow through on the policy, you have not incurred liability, but have in fact shielded yourself from liability. If your policy is to check and you don't in fact check, you could be in trouble. If you have a policy to check, you should fire any employee who doesn't.

(4) I did some quick searching on the web (not in specialized legal resources, which are pretty costly) to see if I could find anything on providing gear or gas to uncertified divers. I couldn't find any cases, but did find this from PADI’s Standard Safe Diving Practices Statement of Understanding, which is part of the standard release (yeah, I know I said I wouldn't call them, but I found this in the course of the other search). "I, _____________, understand that as a diver I should:* * * 3. Use complete, well-maintained, reliable equipment with which I am familiar; and inspect it for correct fit and function prior to each dive. Deny use of my equipment to uncertified divers." Now, this is clearly not definitive, but why do they have divers agreeing to deny the use of equipment to uncertified divers unless there is a liability issue for dive operators, training agencies, etc.? I suppose there could be another explanation, but the most logical one seems to be a liability issue.

(5) In the course of the search mentioned in (4), I found an article that appeared in a publication of the Association of Trial Lawyers of America, the organization of plantiff's lawyers (which just decided to change its name), titled "Diving into Scuba Litigation," which describes, very generally, what is involved in scuba litigation from the planintiffs' lawyers perspective. Here's a link to the article: http://www.medlawlegalteam.com/article_jenner_scuba.html. The article says "A dive shop will not permit a diver to rent equipment without a valid certification card, nor will a professional dive boat permit such a diver to board." Regardless of what the actual practice is, if that's what ATLA's members think, it's likely you would get sued for providing gear or gas without checking cards. You might win, but I would be willing to bet they would come after you.

I don't think there's any need for a new agency either, but I thought it was the logical outcome of the discussion that was underway, you had to at least raise the question, even if you concluded there was no need.

It just seemed to me that you had a lot of carefully thought-out things to contribute and could contribute to fellow divers (regardless of the agencies). Although, as you say, you don't care about the industry or the agencies, you clearly care about fellow divers and have something to offer.

I think agencies serve a purpose. I think it's likely that they have forestalled government regulation of the sport. Mountain climbing has been around practically forever, since before the government regulated as much of our lives, so it would be much harder to regulate now. But recreation scuba got its start after WWII and became really popular during a period of intense governmental regulation. If the industry hadn't done something to set its own standards, we might very well have had government regulation. I doubt anybody would like that better.

Keep thinking about the book. I do realize you used to own and run a shop. I’ve read every entry in the thread and a bunch of other stuff you’ve posted as well. From your posts, it sounds like you care about this more than you’re admitting now. Maybe being an active instructor isn’t in the cards because of the economics or because it’s frustrating, or whatever, but you ought to think about the book.

 

[DrSteve]

What would be nice is if someone would provide real classes for those of us wanting to upgrade our initial OW training and improve our skills. That might be something of a niche market, but it would be a valuable offering that is not currently available on a broad scale.

That would be DIR-F wouldn't it? To my knowledge they are one of the only groups which emphasises actual application and proficiency as part of their courses.

 

[Thalassamania]

Dir-F, LA County, NAUI Master Diver and University programs.

 

[lowwall]

Mike. Purely hypothetically, would you be interested in the following?

You write the materials. I'll set up a non-profit bare bones training agency focused on independent instructors. The agency's functions would be limited to setting training standards, certifying instructors (initially at least this would consist of approving instructors certified by other agencies), making a deal with an insurance company to provide group rates for instructors, asking manufacturers for discount deals for instructors(?), and providing training materials. To keep it as simple as possible, there will be no advertising or marketing budget, no shop affiliations, almost no staff since everything possible will be done online. Dues will be as cheap as possible, maybe $25/yr.

How about the following for a training framework?

Training based around three core modules. The recommended course for a non-diver would be to take all three in continuous progression, resulting in a true ab initio Advanced Open Water diver course.

1a. Fundamental info - basic gas theory and management, equipment
1b. Fundamental Skills - buoyancy, trim, kicks, mask clear, reg recover/replace, air share, hand signals.
No prereq. Results in OW certification (or OW referral).

Fundamental Skills could also be taught standalone as a refresher/skills sharpener class and would be a prerequisite for non-agency divers to take any advanced or specialty courses (or instructor approval following in-water checkout).

2. Gas - gas theory and physiology through multilevel dives, EAN, gas management. Dives include deep and nitrox. Prereq is Fundamental Skills. Certs are Deep and Nitrox.

3. Dive leader - pre-dive and dive planning, shore entry, currents, navigation, limited viz and night, search?, O2 provider?. Prereq is Gas (or AOW+Nitrox from other agency and Fundamental Skills). Certs are AOW, Dive Leader and Nav.

Why all the certs? What's Dive Leader? Students will be learning far more than standard OW/AOW courses, they might as well get something tangible to help justify the cost of the intangibles. Dive leader is because unlike current AOW courses taught exactly to the standards, someone making it through this module should have the skills to plan and lead a dive from the kitchen table through the dive and back to the exit. Marketing-wise, it gives current AOW divers a reason to take the course.

 

[Thalassamania]

I'll be happy to work on this with you.

If I might suggest, look for defense only insurance like that in sky diving instruction. Much cheaper and frankly a better defense.

You select an initial group of five instructors, they will test, by word and deed, each other and then other applicants.

Future instructors are created by serving an apprenticeship and then being examined by a board of five instructors. That's it, no CDs or ITs.

AIs and DMs are created in a similar fashion by boards of three instructors. That's it, no special status instuctors.

 

[lowwall]

Thanks Thalassa, let's see where this goes.

After a quick conversation with one of the lawyers in my family, it's possible the Dive Leader cert is a bad idea liability-wise. An alternative progression could be:

1. Fundamental - no change

2. Real World skills (have to come up with a better name) - pre-dive and dive planning, shore entry, currents, navigation, limited viz and night, search?, O2 provider?. Prereq is Fundamental Skills. Cert is Nav.

3. Gas - gas theory and physiology through multilevel dives, EAN, gas management. Dives include deep and nitrox. Prereq is Real World (or AOW from other agency + Fundamental Skills). Certs are AOW, Deep and Nitrox (maybe advanced Nitrox?).

 

[waterpirate]

I have just finished reading this entire thread. A lot of really good concepts are presented, however i feel that even if a "better training agency" was created to return to the days of old, NAUI 1982. It is overlooking one fundamental rule, diving is not for everyone. People who are truly comfortable in the water from the OW onset and are serious about diving educate themselves.
They get myoptic vision and seek diving info and experiences anywhere they can get them. Be it from a mentor, adventure dives, DIR, hog, or there own short comings from experience.
By creating this new training forum you are again trying to sell better diving to the masses. The masses are the masses, and they have limitations.
All I am trying to say is that the whole system is so skewed at this point that there is no fix. Dive within your limitations and dive often and the rest will follow, no matter what card you have, or who gave it to you.
Eric

 

[mikerault]

I am willing to help. I am a certified technical instructor and have been providing technical instruction (for computers) using objective centered learning for many years (since mid-80's) I am also the author of over 2 dozen technical books. I also have wet suits, dry suit, semi-dry suit and several cameras. I can help with the writing, editing, getting it published and the photography if needed. I also have dive buddies with technical rigs (BP/W, dual tanks, etc.).

Mike