To those considering an OW class...

[Dive-aholic]

This subject is Kafkaesque, I quite frankly have never heard of such lunacy outside of the government or military. I, for one, can not understand why (or how) any thinking individual, not to mention skilled diving instructor, would tolerate it.

I think you're missing the point most of us are making. We don't tolerate it. Mike no longer teaches because of it. He also taught for several years and didn't tolerate it during that time. Those of us that currently teach are not really tolerating it. We are adapting. How do you propose we change things? Too many instructors are willing to accept the minimum standards and teach them. The ones that don't do that are a minority. So we can either leave the profession or we can make a small difference in our corner of the reef.

BTW, this "lunacy" is everywhere. I work in the healthcare industry and see it everywhere I go.

 

[Dive-aholic]

...I had to explain that I wouldn't do any dive with any student without a skill assessment and if you can't dive, there isn't any sense in leaving the pool...

I don't take my students into a pool, but the first dive is either altitude (no in water skills required) or buoyancy. I use this dive as my evaluation dive. If the student does fine, I collect payment for the course after this dive.

 

[DrSteve]

The truly unfortunate thing is after this discussion and what I have seen in my DM course, once I am done I am done. No renewal, no nothing, got the card and moving on. Should I ever go onto instructor it will be a means to get a cross over and teach the BSAC system. Although I do wonder how the litigous nature of the US will affect how the BSAC system is taught. But that's for another day.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Many, okay, most PADI instructors think this is true and it's not. At least not absolutely.
Liable for what? Injury? If you injure a student in a class setting, you most likely have problems other than teaching them an extra fin kick.

Dispite what I was taught during my instructor training, I condluded that the better they were in the water before I turned them loose the less chance I had of beeing called to court because they just weren't going to have problems. All I had to do is not get them hurt in class and teaching them to dive in the pool made open water training safe and fun so that wasn't likely either.

So, yes, if you add or subtract you risk being asked why. The question is, do you have an answer? I'm not a lawyer and I don't know what would happen in court but wouldn't I love telling it to the judge? LOL

 

[MikeFerrara]

I don't take my students into a pool, but the first dive is either altitude (no in water skills required) or buoyancy. I use this dive as my evaluation dive. If the student does fine, I collect payment for the course after this dive.

I did my skill assessments on certified divers in OW. I agree, you don't need a pool.

One of the last classes that I taught was a nitrox class for a couple from this board who had recently completed their AOW course. I conducted a simple skill assessment over a training platform in a local quarry and we spent a couple of hours there going over basics before I would take them on a nitrox dive out in the quarry. They couldn't even descend together and stop before bouncing off the platform let alone do the other simple things I asked of them. What a nerve wracking and potentially dangerous thing it would have been to go out tooling around on nitrox before getting some of those basics squared away first.

Of course, current standards don't require dives at all for a nitrox class and at that time they didn't require the instructor to be in the water. I could have just sent them out alone and if they made it back I could have certified them.

Note here that some instructor had taken them on a deep dive while I didn't have the balls to dive with them at all without almost reteaching the OW class to them.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I think you're missing the point most of us are making. We don't tolerate it. Mike no longer teaches because of it. He also taught for several years and didn't tolerate it during that time. Those of us that currently teach are not really tolerating it. We are adapting. How do you propose we change things? Too many instructors are willing to accept the minimum standards and teach them. The ones that don't do that are a minority. So we can either leave the profession or we can make a small difference in our corner of the reef.

BTW, this "lunacy" is everywhere. I work in the healthcare industry and see it everywhere I go.

Yes! There is no doubt that there are good divers out there who are teaching diving to their own standards though most seem willing to excuse the agency for one reason or the other. I started out defending the agncy but now I blame them.

There are the new instructors and some others who blindly accept what the agency has to say but I too was one of those. Lots of instructors quit before long and I know more than a few who give the same reasons that I do. that's why I liken the dive industry to Amway. They rely on the new folks to a large degree. You just have to have that new bottom tear comming in and you also need the dive shop who prepetuates the whole thing.

You're right we see the same sort of stuff in many other disciplines. Diving is not at all unique in that regard.

In a way, I applaud those who decide to continue and just look after their own corner of the reef. On the other hand that doesn't give the agencies any reason to change because to do so, you continue to send them a check every year, you sell their materisla, PICS, videos and other products. The end consumer remains clueless like that poster the other day telling about what they learned in their AOW course. It was a mess and it's a small miracle that they didn't get killed yet they think they got a greath class, missing divers and all.

Myself, I'm all for free enterprise. The agencies can sell what they want but do we really have free enterprise in the dive industry? Assume that you want to market your own class, what are the barriers to entry? Gosh, we could also look at what it takes to open a shop and even get equipment dealerships. How easy is that without agency affiliation? Is it even possible?

 

[jbichsel]

To Mike Ferrara,
I would buy your book, read it and care. I would love to dive and learn from you. I'm sure you would want to re-teach me before diving with me and that would be ok.

From just reading your postings over the last several years, I'm sure I could learn a ton from you and it would be a pleasure.

Write on!

For the time being, I will continue under the PADI banner since it is what people want in this area. I am just finalizing details to start instruction at a local country club as an independent instructor. One of their first questions was to ensure that I would be providing PADI certification. I told them "Yes, but I have issues with PADI standards and I teach more than what PADI requires." PADI marketing and brainwashing is quite effective even if their training standards are not.

Luckily my CD in Texas is going to supply me with equipment, plus he has been teaching since 1982 and teaches "beyond" PADI. He's the one that got me started diving and has figured out many ways to get more from less, as it were.

I agree wholeheartedly that PADI and other agencies rely on the new bottom tier for their continuation. It is very much like scAMWAY and other pyramid schemes.

Please Mike, write a book (or series of them). I'll even pay extra for autographed copies.

P.S. I also told this country club that my maximum class size would be 4 students. I said if a family of 5 wanted certification, I would consider it based on an interview and review of swimming skills. I think that 8:1 for OW is stupid.

 

[mikerault]

1. PADI, or any other "certifying" group was not blessed by God or government to do their certifying
2. They took it on theirselves to fill a need as they saw it.
3. Nothing prevents you from breaking off, writing your own materials and giving your own certification.
4. If it is superior and provides good value, you will soon become the new standard
5. I know a publisher that might love to do this publishing, he enjoys tweaking noses of those who think they know everything.

How about ASDI (American Standard Dive Instructors) or USDI (Universal Standard Dive Instructors) or ISDI (International Standard Dive Instructors)

Mike

 

[DrSteve]

3. Nothing prevents you from breaking off, writing your own materials and giving your own certification.

Except recognition. While years ago it was enough to own the equipment to prove you could dive, now you have to have a card to get your tanks filled!

I like the comment from the dive shop I did my OW with - We teach you to dive, you just happen to get an SSI card at the end of it.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Except recognition. While years ago it was enough to own the equipment to prove you could dive, now you have to have a card to get your tanks filled!

I like the comment from the dive shop I did my OW with - We teach you to dive, you just happen to get an SSI card at the end of it.

I don't think that recognition is an issue. Those that look at cards are selling something. It's to thier advantage to accept the card presented. Agency or insurance requirements for a certification for continueing education or even air fills don't define what an acceptable certification card is, they just require a certification.

I do think that insurance could be an issue but I'd bet that there's a way to solve that. Again, the insurance company is selling something. They might not be interested in insuring a small number of instructors but if you make the package attractive somehow, I think they'll sell you insurance.