To those considering an OW class...

[Debraw]

This is a good thread and warrants some great discussion without the typical agency bashing. It almost always boils down to the instructors, shop philosophy and yes staying within the standards set by agencies. It has prompted me to offer a longer class since there are so few shops doing this. It will not be as cheap as shorter classes but I think the benefits will far outweigh the cost.

Chaetodon

 

[FIXXERVI6]

This is a good thread and warrants some great discussion without the typical agency bashing. It almost always boils down to the instructors, shop philosophy and yes staying within the standards set by agencies. It has prompted me to offer a longer class since there are so few shops doing this. It will not be as cheap as shorter classes but I think the benefits will far outweigh the cost.

Chaetodon

So how does that work, OW, PPB turn into one class with additional pool time, then at the end you receive OW and PPB cards?

I see phases, is that like a recommended path?

 

[FIXXERVI6]

Well I guess if I go read I might answer my questions huh

 

[loosebits]

This is a good thread and warrants some great discussion without the typical agency bashing. It almost always boils down to the instructors, shop philosophy and yes staying within the standards set by agencies. It has prompted me to offer a longer class since there are so few shops doing this. It will not be as cheap as shorter classes but I think the benefits will far outweigh the cost.

Chaetodon

Wonderful!! I just lost some of my pessimism about where scuba is going.

Now, would anyone out there like to help me promote classes like this? We can talk to our LDS's; we can talk to prospective divers; we can simply put an invitation in our signatures for the prospective diver to PM us about OW classes.

 

[stiebs]

I'm coming in on the tail end of this, and I couldn't be naffed reading the whole thread. I did my cert with FAUI (Federation of Australian Underwater Instructors, IIRC), in 1990. The course was a 7-day live-in course, 9am-5pm every day, with theory, exams, pool time, shore dives and boat dives. I logged 10 open water dives (including 2 to 19m) by the time I get my cert.

Skill tests that we did which I don't believe you'll find in an OW course these days included:
* 800m openwater surface swim
* 200m snorkel with full scuba gear
* 25m underwater on scuba without mask
* Full gear ditch and recover
* Rescue and resuscitation
* Navigate a 20m square by compass


And aside from everyone qualifying, including one guy who at the start of the week couldn't breathe through a snorkel on dry land, and feeling extremely comfortable and safe in the water, spending a full week virtually living together with the instructors was a lot of fun and very educational. And I'm sure that everyone who did that course is a much better diver for it.

 

[DOkie]

Ok. Different perspective. I've only been diving for two months but have my advanced now, dry suit cert, working on my deep water and have logged over 30 dives. (Yeah, go ahead and laugh at me). Our local shop, which we affectionately call "boot camp", has an awesome instructor. He puts you through the works. Even so, when I finished my open water, I KNEW I was not a qualified diver. My instructor suggested enrolling right into the advanced class, which I did and it helped a ton! Am I still green? Definitely. Do I always dive with more experienced divers? Most certainly. My question is when does it become the divers responsibility to know their limitations? Sure, we can make passing your OW harder, but is that ultimately going to make what would be a careless diver a good one? No. I can't tell you how many times our instructor stated "passing this class does NOT make you a diver," and he would go on to talk about continuing to dive under controlled circumstances until we felt comfortable. Out of a class of 8, I have seen NO ONE (and I dive with the instructor at least 3-4 times a week. He makes it easy - you can tag along with current classes). Is it his responsibility if these people go out and kill themselves? Nope, they passed the class regardless of what the curriculum was (easy or hard). It's the same as the divers on here that say they took the 2 day class and then took the OWA. They knew they had to learn more, so took the responsibility of taking more classes. Personally, I don't believe that anyone taking today's "edited" version of the OW class is any less qualified at the time of completion than someone who took the class 20 years ago or at a university level. If they are, then they didn't suck as much knowledge as they possibly could from their instructor. Again - personal responsibility.

 

[FIXXERVI6]

Ok. Different perspective. I've only been diving for two months but have my advanced now, dry suit cert, working on my deep water and have logged over 30 dives. (Yeah, go ahead and laugh at me). Our local shop, which we affectionately call "boot camp", has an awesome instructor. He puts you through the works. Even so, when I finished my open water, I KNEW I was not a qualified diver. My instructor suggested enrolling right into the advanced class, which I did and it helped a ton! Am I still green? Definitely. Do I always dive with more experienced divers? Most certainly. My question is when does it become the divers responsibility to know their limitations? Sure, we can make passing your OW harder, but is that ultimately going to make what would be a careless diver a good one? No. I can't tell you how many times our instructor stated "passing this class does NOT make you a diver," and he would go on to talk about continuing to dive under controlled circumstances until we felt comfortable. Out of a class of 8, I have seen NO ONE (and I dive with the instructor at least 3-4 times a week. He makes it easy - you can tag along with current classes). Is it his responsibility if these people go out and kill themselves? Nope, they passed the class regardless of what the curriculum was (easy or hard). It's the same as the divers on here that say they took the 2 day class and then took the OWA. They knew they had to learn more, so took the responsibility of taking more classes. Personally, I don't believe that anyone taking today's "edited" version of the OW class is any less qualified at the time of completion than someone who took the class 20 years ago or at a university level. If they are, then they didn't suck as much knowledge as they possibly could from their instructor. Again - personal responsibility.

I don't think harder is the answer, more is the answer, you should know your limits as soon as the c card hits your hand.

 

[DrSteve]

What gets me is the essential requirement that to be a safe diver you have to take the AOW course. Oh boy another one is scared into taking the advanced class! It's the card and not the experience which counts. Someone said that to be PADI advanced you have to take a deep dive course...not true...just 4 specialties are required. My LDS says you have to take a deep dive cert, but I am not aware of any PADI reg that says this is the case. Don't get me wrong I did learn in my AOW course and I think it is valid, but it shouldn't be the route to do certain dives, your specific experience and cert cards should. As a MD it is possible I haven't done a night dive, bit no one would question me since I have the MD card...yet an OW student could have the night dive cert, but he won't be allowed as he doesn't have AOW (possibly). Case in point I did a 100 foot wreck dive with an SSI DiveCon...his 3rd dive in the ocean and his first to 100 feet. The problem was he couldn't admit that, he was a DiveCon and was a victim of his own arrogance.

From the other side BSAC had a wonderful system. 10 years of training until you were qualified to dive with the equivalent of a dive master (I'm exagerating) to become a novice and then another 10 dives before you could be a signed off novice. Then you did the Sports Diver course and had to do another 10 dives to qualify to be able to dive with anyone of your level or above. Of those 10 dives they had to show a range of experience and a total bottom time, 10 dives in the quarry didn't cut it. But it changed...PADI et al, came over and offered quicker certs, the only way BSAC could compete was by diluting their courses. Don't get me wrong an Advanced BSAC diver is still as good as the old version (and of all the major agencies, PADI, NAUI, SSI, YMCA etc., there is no equal to the BSAC Advanced cert, they just don't exist! The Advanced cert requires boat handling skills, basic boat navigation, compressor knowledge etc.,), The old Novice/Sports Diver progression has been split into several easier steps.

The other thing I find shocking is the statement that you cannot teach beyond the perscribed standards - because if you do, you could be held liable and you taught beyond the scope of the course. Doesn't matter if you are qualified to teach the course which answered the question, but it wasn't part of the course you were teaching so ooopsie, hello lawsuit, where's my insurance now?

The worst "standard" I have heard (I believe this is SSI) "It is not required to be able to swim to be a scuba diver, but it will enhance your enjoyment." There was a swim test, but I don't think passing it was required, just not panicing. (Can an SSI instructor confirm that?)

 

[jbichsel]

What gets me is the essential requirement that to be a safe diver you have to take the AOW course. Oh boy another one is scared into taking the advanced class! It's the card and not the experience which counts. Someone said that to be PADI advanced you have to take a deep dive course...not true...just 4 specialties are required. My LDS says you have to take a deep dive cert, but I am not aware of any PADI reg that says this is the case. Don't get me wrong I did learn in my AOW course and I think it is valid, but it shouldn't be the route to do certain dives, your specific experience and cert cards should. As a MD it is possible I haven't done a night dive, bit no one would question me since I have the MD card...yet an OW student could have the night dive cert, but he won't be allowed as he doesn't have AOW (possibly). Case in point I did a 100 foot wreck dive with an SSI DiveCon...his 3rd dive in the ocean and his first to 100 feet. The problem was he couldn't admit that, he was a DiveCon and was a victim of his own arrogance.

From http://www.padi.com/english/common/courses/rec/continue/aow.asp it lists that Deep Adventure dive and Underwater Navigation Adventure dive plus three of the other listed Adventure Dives are required for "Advanced".

Also from the 2006 PADI Instructors Manual, Adventured in Diving section, page 1-2, list the same requirements for "Advanced Open Water Diver" certification. On page 1-10 in the "Summary of Adventure Dive Requirements and Recommendations", both the Deep dive and UW Nav dive are listed as requirements.

Unfortunately, the way many instructors "teach" these dives, which is completely within PADI standards mind you, they are basically worthless.

From the other side BSAC had a wonderful system. 10 years of training until you were qualified to dive with the equivalent of a dive master (I'm exagerating) to become a novice and then another 10 dives before you could be a signed off novice. Then you did the Sports Diver course and had to do another 10 dives to qualify to be able to dive with anyone of your level or above. Of those 10 dives they had to show a range of experience and a total bottom time, 10 dives in the quarry didn't cut it. But it changed...PADI et al, came over and offered quicker certs, the only way BSAC could compete was by diluting their courses. Don't get me wrong an Advanced BSAC diver is still as good as the old version (and of all the major agencies, PADI, NAUI, SSI, YMCA etc., there is no equal to the BSAC Advanced cert, they just don't exist! The Advanced cert requires boat handling skills, basic boat navigation, compressor knowledge etc.,), The old Novice/Sports Diver progression has been split into several easier steps.

The other thing I find shocking is the statement that you cannot teach beyond the perscribed standards - because if you do, you could be held liable and you taught beyond the scope of the course. Doesn't matter if you are qualified to teach the course which answered the question, but it wasn't part of the course you were teaching so ooopsie, hello lawsuit, where's my insurance now?

The worst "standard" I have heard (I believe this is SSI) "It is not required to be able to swim to be a scuba diver, but it will enhance your enjoyment." There was a swim test, but I don't think passing it was required, just not panicing. (Can an SSI instructor confirm that?)

At least PADI requires a 200m/yd swim or 300 m/yd mask, snorkel, fin swim and 10 minute tread for OW. Personally I think it should be all three.

Back to the point, under PADI standards, with a total of 9 open water dives, you can be certified as an "Advanced Open Water Diver".

Kind of sounds like some late night ad for a truck driving school:

"You too, can learn to drive the big rigs in the privacy of your own home!"

 

[neil]

The other thing I find shocking is the statement that you cannot teach beyond the perscribed standards - because if you do, you could be held liable and you taught beyond the scope of the course.

Many, okay, most PADI instructors think this is true and it's not. At least not absolutely.
Liable for what? Injury? If you injure a student in a class setting, you most likely have problems other than teaching them an extra fin kick.