To those considering an OW class...

[mikerault]

So I never said it would be easy. Go to folks like DAN and the other insurers, ask them to participate in the design/certification requirements, get their blessing and you are golden. If I were them I would aghast at what passes for a certified diver these days, in most cases "safe" and "certified" aren't even in the same ballpark.

Mike

 

[Thalassamania]

Starting an agency is no a big deal, insurance is likely easier than finding a good graphic artist for the logo and cards. But that's not the point.

The question, in my mind is: why with all the agencies out there would any self respecting instructor (e.g., one who's been in the industry for more than the average life-span of two years) put up with the kind of structure that PADI apparenty has in place?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Starting an agency is no a big deal, insurance is likely easier than finding a good graphic artist for the logo and cards. But that's not the point.

The question, in my mind is: why with all the agencies out there would any self respecting instructor (e.g., one who's been in the industry for more than the average life-span of two years) put up with the kind of structure that PADI apparenty has in place?

The question in my mind is what would a new agency offer instructors? Lets face it, agencies don't compete for divers, they compete for shops and instructors. What do shops want? They want to certify lots of divers so they can sell them equipment. If I wrote training standards that reflected what I did in 15 hours of confined water it just wouldn't go over well with the big shops who push students through in 4 hours. It's the exact opposite of what they want.

Then there is the question of why? Why would some one put forth the expense and effort in the first place? Regardless of what some of us think about dive training, niether the diveing community as a whole or the shops and instructors seem to be screaming for an alternative.

It seems to me that those points and others render the whole thing a purely academic subject that a few of us like to bat around between ourselves with the occasional new diver picking up a few things from the discussion.

 

[MikeFerrara]

To Mike Ferrara,
I would buy your book, read it and care. I would love to dive and learn from you. I'm sure you would want to re-teach me before diving with me and that would be ok.

From just reading your postings over the last several years, I'm sure I could learn a ton from you and it would be a pleasure.

Write on!

For the time being, I will continue under the PADI banner since it is what people want in this area. I am just finalizing details to start instruction at a local country club as an independent instructor. One of their first questions was to ensure that I would be providing PADI certification. I told them "Yes, but I have issues with PADI standards and I teach more than what PADI requires." PADI marketing and brainwashing is quite effective even if their training standards are not.

Luckily my CD in Texas is going to supply me with equipment, plus he has been teaching since 1982 and teaches "beyond" PADI. He's the one that got me started diving and has figured out many was to get more from less, as it were.

I agree wholeheartedly that PADI and other agencies rely on the new bottom tier for their continuation. It is very much like scAMWAY and other pyramid schemes.

Please Mike, write a book (or series of them). I'll even pay extra for autographed copies.

P.S. I also told this country club that my maximum class size would be 4 students. I said if a family of 5 wanted certification, I would consider it based on an interview and review of swimming skills. I think that 8:1 for OW is stupid.

Well see? I believe that you would read my book and I'd probably read yours. We've proabaly already read most of what the other has to say though and we're still discussing the subject.

Who else would read it? Agencies, big shops that certify hundreds of divers every year, potential new divers? Would it amount to preaching to the choir?

 

[jbichsel]

Starting an agency is no a big deal, insurance is likely easier than finding a good graphic artist for the logo and cards. But that's not the point.

The question, in my mind is: why with all the agencies out there would any self respecting instructor (e.g., one who's been in the industry for more than the average life-span of two years) put up with the kind of structure that PADI apparenty has in place?

I understand you point and view. I am frustrated with PADI, their standards (or lack thereof), their attitude and their hunger for cash.

So I guess your question is, why do I stick with them?

My answer is, at the present, I need their name recognition if I want to teach. Given the land-locked location of Colorado, certifying agency name recognition has quite a bit to do with being able to teach around here.

If there were another certifying agency around that were head-and-shoulders above the rest, I would gladly cross over.

However, at this point the uneducated that do want to pursue scuba, think that name recognition is synonimous with quality. So my goal at this point is to fill in the gaps and exceed the minimum requirements while taking advantage of what PADI does offer:

1. Training materials and guidelines. Admittedly lacking to most of us, but a place to start from.
2. Structure. Again, lacking, but at least a framework to build from.
3. Resources. Also not up to the level we would like, but at least a starting point.

Maybe I'm fooling myself, but I like to think that given time, enough people will see and demand that things change, and PADI will take off the blinders and become not only the biggest, but also the best.

 

[jbichsel]

Well see? I believe that you would read my book and I'd probably read yours. We've proabaly already read most of what the other has to say though and we're still discussing the subject.

Who else would read it? Agencies, big shops that certify hundreds of divers every year, potential new divers? Would it amount to preaching to the choir?

How do you eat an elephant?

If you wrote a book, I would buy it and recommend that every diver I certify or dive with read it. I would probably send some out as birthday and/or Christmas presents!

Every flood starts with a single drop of rain.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Maybe I'm fooling myself, but I like to think that given time, enough people will see and demand that things change, and PADI will take off the blinders and become not only the biggest, but also the best.

I don't think you're fooling yourself at all. Look at the things that have migrated from technical diving into recreational diving already...the BC, manifold, alternate air source ECT. The things that many of us complain aren't taught in recreational diving aren't things that have been removed but rather they've never been there. All of it is taught in technical diving and the lines are getting more and more blured between the two. Diving was originally taught on the bottom because they didn't have BC's and if you weren't moving you likely had no choice but to light on the bottom. They just haven't completely integrated the BC into training yet. The same goes for gas management. I don't know what the excuse for the lack of buddy skills in training is but I'm sure there's an explanation in there someplace.

We see more and more articles with titles like "What can rec divers learn from tech divers?". Over time more and more will be adopted. GUE has already introduced recreational classes that teach it though they don't have an entry level class and they aren't real big. Things never stop changing and there isn't much more that they can cut out of recreational training.

I don't know how long it will take but some years down the road we'll be able to point to the scubaboard archives as proof that PADI didn't invent any of this. LOL

You can already go back through the archives and see how many instructors started out argueing that this stuff isn't possible to teach in an entry level class then later come back as leaders of the band. My own tune has changed some since I've been here.

It's only a matter of time. More and more of these instructors will become course directors and more and more of their students will become instructors. Those CD's will be in a position to influence standards and some will even have full time positions at PADI HQ. Ideas spread but the lack of ideas can't. Just as heat can be conducted but the lack of heat (cold) can't.

The real "old guard" like my former cave instructor who quit teaching rec courses for dive shops because they wanted him to pass students who had trouble clearing a mask and my other early tech instructor who beats the same drum about buoyancy control and problem management and other divers like them started the ball rolling almost at the beginning. Others picked that up and took it a step further and it goes on. I don't know if we're 2nd, 3rd or 4th generation but we're in there somplace and you don't have to look much further than this board to see evidence of change. It might not be fast enough to suit me but it's there.

Even if existing agencies don't pick up on it by choice, we can clearly see that divers are. Look how many divers parot terms like rock bottom, trim, CG drills ect. some of those divers are taking classes to get more cards and some will be asking the hard questions to their instructors. Some of those instructor will play catchup and then start teaching it like they invented it.

We see more and more divers running around the quarries looking like cave divers in the water. Not many still but they're there and 10 years ago there weren't any. Other divers will see how slick and easy it looks and they'll want to dive like that. Not all will but more all the time.

Recently I was at the local quarry and I hadn't been there in a while. Some friends were introducing my wife and I to a bunch of people and it was funny! Mike and Sandy meet Dick and his Wife Jane...they're cave divers too... Jane is a new instructor and just passed her full cave training and Dick just finished his DM training. I meet more cave divers lately at a quarry 20 minutes from my home in Indiana than I meet down in cave country. The mad rush toward tech and cave diving scares me because I hate to see the caves fill up with divers but those new cave divers are really learning to dive. Little by little they're bringing those skills to their open water classes as they realize that it's easier to teach it up front. Chit rolls down hill and that's exactly what's happening. Some one comes up with it because they need it and others pick it up because they like it and can make use of it. It's slow because there isn't a lot of chit and it's a small hill.

The internet and boards like this are helping. When I was certified the only source of dive info was the dive shop and the magazines. That's not true anymore.

Eventually the recreational agencies will catch up some and I, for one, will enjoy making an I told you so phone call or two. LOL. PADI may be the way the world learns to dive but where is PADI learning it?

 

[TSandM]

I had to grin as I read you guys discussing the possibility of starting a new certifying agency that would really teach skills and have standards . . .

 

[StingraysRCool]

I fully agree with the original post. I just got my OW c-card last weekend. Even in the class I wondered if some of the things we did were more lax than they should be - meaning our instructor should have made us do the skills more correctly, or more often. I think I received good basic instruction, but I want to obtain more education and instruction before jumping into the ocean (my class was in a quarry). I think that my instructor was very knowledgeable and a good DM, but I also think one more weekend of class would not have been a bad thing.

What I'm trying to say is, I think I received good instruction, but I question whether the certifying organization is doing itself, or me, any favors by allowing people into the water with only the instruction I received in 2 full weekends. I had taken the academics and CW part of the class a couple years ago and never finished - so at least I had done the basic skills before. The other 3 people in my class, to my knowledge, had never been in scuba before. That's a little scary to think about. And my own experience isn't a whole lot beyond theirs.

I'm very happy I took the class again, I feel really good about the skills I've learned and can do but I definitely think more education and bottom time is in order. I'm taking it upon myself to do what I think is the responsible thing (for me) regardless of what the certifying organization thinks is appropriate.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I had to grin as I read you guys discussing the possibility of starting a new certifying agency that would really teach skills and have standards . . .

Explain please?

I had to grin as I considered the best way to eat an elephant.