Thoughts on the future of Sharm

[divebunnie]

Hmm thing is, at the end of the day, there are many many different ways to live a life. Every country has its own culture and people who travel cannot help but learn a little about each culture. And as a result of this extensive travel, we now find that most countries are host to several cultures and followers of more than one religion. Should it be that the majority always rules? Surely we could then look at other countries and ban the activities of other religions in favour of the majority. Is that right or fair? Surely every person in the world has the right to believe in their own religion and follow their own culture, so long as they do not inflict harm or pain on other people. That is what makes the world such an amazing fantastic place to be, we can all partake in our own lifestyles, whilst also learning and embracing elements of others' should we so choose.

At the end of the day Egypt has one of the oldest tourist industries in the world, and has raked in huge profits from its visitors, courting the Victorians and those interested in its incredible history at the beginning of last century, then the divers at the end of that century followed by the sun-worshippers this century. It has played a warm and friendly host to the tourist dollar, and as a result earned itself a rightful place on the tourist map of the world, and it has of course benefited from the wealth generated.

If it wishes to turn its back on those tourists, then fair play, but how on earth is it going to compensate for all its countryfolk that currently rely on the tourist industry to feed their families? What are all the Egyptian diving instructors going to do if you ban the bikini? You can be sure that the divers won't be coming here if women have to keep themselves covered up and aren't allowed to do a spot of sunbathing between dives. And let's face it, a dive guide can earn more than a teacher in this country, so what happens to them? What about the thousands of Egyptians living and working in the hotels and shops in Sharm el Sheikh, Dahab, Hurghada to name just a few places? There won't be any visitors there, if the women were not allowed to sun themselves, or the guys buy a beer, so how are these guys and their families going to survive? Yes, we did have an influx of Egyptian and Arab Israeli tourists here recently, however this was only because people were offered loans to pay for their trips and hotels were forced to cut their prices. And the shopkeepers moaned that no one spent any money whilst there. So would this be sustainable? I don't think so.. in my humble opinion of course.

I truly hope that Egypt gets the government that it wants this Autumn, that everyone gets the freedom they fought for, that they have the unity that they demonstrated in Tahrir square (where Christians protected the Muslims from the police so that they could pray, and vice versa). From what I could see as a mere visitor to this country, people were calling for more freedom and civil rights, not less.

 

[Red Sea Leonfish]

Two observations on how the curent situation is already affecting tourism and the influx of foreign spending in the Red Sea area:

(1) I had dinner with a UK friend the other day who has been out to either Sharm or Hurghada every Autumn for two weeks for the last three years. Staying 4* all incl and spending some cash on diving and trips etc whilst there. This year they are having two weeks in south west Turkey. Their main reason for the change was the 'situation' in Egypt.

(2) I'm looking at having a week in Dahab early season next Spring (given that I'm less concerned about 'the situation') but with (a) no confirmed UK flights for next year (and every possibility that they may be cancelled in the MB get elected and cause problems internationally), (b) various dive centres going bust, and (c) the (albeit slim) possibility of increased border controls and/or expulsion of most European dive instructors, I won't be booking anything until either after the election (whenever that is) or very last minute (in the hope that things don't change in the time between booking and going).

Between us that adds up to around £2,500 GBP that we won't be spending in/on the way to Egypt between now and the end of 2011. Money that the kind of workers Dive Bunnie mentions would probably have appreciated!

 

[ElChe]

Really interesting articles, thanks for sharing. No bikinis on the beaches? Well, it would be only the start I think...

 

[Searcaigh]

Just spent the last 30 mins or so going through this thread, as it is Ramadan and I don't have much to do at the moment (except some last minute packing for my Eid holiday - fly to sunny Scotland tomorrow )

Ignoring the parts by Red Sea Shadow and macrobubble which deviate somewhat to Crowley's original post.

I have lived in the Middle East since '86 having spent 11 years in the magic kingdom (KSA), 7 of which located in Jeddah where I logged more than 700 dives in that time. Since 97 I have been living in Dubai, and responsible over the past 14 years for sales in medical products for various companies in the region which also includes Africa and Iran.

The current company I work for has reasonable business in Egypt. In 2010 I did just over $3M which was not too bad as prices are pretty much rock bottom in that market, compared to Iran which has a similar sized population I sold $18M worth of similar products.

I have all sorts of hoops to jump through for my business in Iran, especially as I work for a US company, as the US government make it extrememly difficult to do business there even though the products I sell are humanitarian. However on the other hand the Egyptian business has great growth potential but now because of the revolution my finance department has decided to impose a cash in advance payment for every shipment.

My distributor is struggling to have funds moved from the bank to pay for the shipments, and additionally his customers are not paying him on time (MOH, hospitals etc).

Some new accounts have just been opened because some of my competition have decided to withdraw from this market because of payment issues and my distributor has taken a chance to get more business.

Strange as it may sound we are going to finish this year upside on forecast despite having not shipped anything in Q1 and we have a possible sales forecast of $8M in 2012 that has been rejected by my bosses in the US because of fears of non payment.

I figure this outlook by the bean counters in most international companies is pretty much going to be universal, certainly seems that way from other people I know here in Dubai who also do or have done business in Egypt. If the September elections do not materialise I can see Egypt going the same way as Sudan where my local distributor requests things from the Khartoum Duty Free such as Tide washing powder, soap etc.

I have not dived Sharm since 2005, and apart from Jackson and Thomas Reefs it was awful, but I would like to come over and dive again now while the numbers are low if my company would allow me to visit Egypt.

Good luck to all who are there, I really hope the struggle will be worth it, but as mentioned by somebody earlier in the thread, when you demolish a house you have rubble and that has to be cleared before anything can be built again

 

[Crowley]

Thank you for the posts guys! Especially divebunnie - forgive me for saying this but I think the tone of your email reflects a frustration that all foreign staff are feeling at the moment - and I think we have a sometimes more objective view of the situation, because although we are not Egyptian, many of us aren't really European any more either - most of my colleagues have traveled the world and can order beer and ensure that the taxi/tuktuk/songtam/jeepny/whatever driver isn't going to rip you off excessively in 9 different languages, and a lot of that gets absorbed in passing.

Here is an interesting article I read tonight, about the beaches and the bikini thing, and I do feel that the revolution has lost some direction in what it sent out to originally achieve. People need to be worried about how they will continue to employ and feed 80 million Egyptians, not whether or not Western Values are acceptable in Egypt and if we should cover the monuments of of the "rotten", ancient, pyramid building Pharonic people. So-called "Western" media is slapped all across Arabic TV with adverts from the newest McCamel burger to the lastest skin-whitening moisturiser - an irony of life, since many white people invest lots of money on sun tanning products in order to turn brown. It's a strange world.

I'm in danger of hijacking my own thread again but in terms of the original future for Sharm topic - the frustration in Cairo is starting to seep into Sharm. There have been some problems here that are away from the tourists but there is a growing sense of unease amongst the people who live a little bit away from the bright lights of Na'ama bay.

One group of Egyptians I like discussing the current situation with is the boat crews. Many of Sharm's Egyptian workers are seasonal, they come for a few months to try to make some money, which they dutifully send back to their families, but don't actually stay for very long.
The boat crews in Sharm have been plying their trade, in many, many cases, for 20 or more years in Sharm. They started as a deck boy, got promoted to cook, and then Captain (except my good man Ahmed Goma, who is not allowed to be promoted to captain because is is such a fine chef) and these guys are like one big family. Half of them are probably related somehow. We have what - 250 boats in Sharm, each with a crew on average of 3 and a bit, plus associated supplementary jetty personnel so therefore, let's call it a round number of 1,000 people who directly rely on tourism and many of whom have grown up working on a boat for tourists - it's pretty much the only adult life they've known.

And they *hate* the violence and the protests. They for sure have their opinions but they have good, steady jobs, and they thank their lucky stars right now, because half the crews in Sharm are not working at the moment. What to do? Earn a good wage with good tips on a nice boat or pilot a rickety fishing wreck out of Suez?

It's a small minority of voices, but I like these people a great deal and if we have true Egyptian friends it is these guys with whom we work so closely every day. Okay yes, we argue all the time, but this is only because we're such good mates!

It's not easy to see the big picture when you are focused on the short and narrow but the world really has become a smaller place, and being short-sighted (metaphorically speaking) does not help.

Anyway, My cat needs me.... evenin' all

Crowley

 

[boulderjohn]

Surely every person in the world has the right to believe in their own religion and follow their own culture, so long as they do not inflict harm or pain on other people. ...

From what I could see as a mere visitor to this country, people were calling for more freedom and civil rights, not less.

Not everyone believes that everyone should have the right to follow their religion. Many who fought for freedom were fighting for the freedom to follow THEIR beliefs, and in some cases I am quite sure that one of the beliefs for which they were fighting is the belief that others should be compelled to follow their beliefs.

Here in America we had the Puritans who arrived in 1620 looking for the freedom to follow their religion. Part of their religious belief, though, was for a government that ran the country in accordance with their beliefs. Thus, when another group who came to America exercised their religious freedom in nearby Merry Mount, the outraged Puritans seized them for their unacceptable beliefs and destroyed their settlement. When those Puritans seized control in England in 1642, they pretty much took away everyone else's freedom of religion until they were kicked out a generation later. Many people think the Puritans were the inspiration for our country's concept of freedom of religion, and in one way they were--people wanted to make sure they could never get control and impose their religion on everyone else the way they wanted to.

Even in America, where we supposedly have freedom of religion, we have limits. We generally do not allow women to bathe topless on our beaches as it is done in many European countries. That is only a matter of degree awy form th proposed rules for beaches in Egypt.

During the recent trial of Warren Jeffs, a man who "married" multiple underage girls, apparently to satisfy sexual desires that are illegal throughout the country, the defendant's defense was that he was merely practicing his religion. His religion allowed him to take multiple child brides. He was right--we denied him freedom of religion. When certain practices go too far, that constitutional protection goes out the window. Once again, it is only a matter of degree.

So, I don't think any nation allows total freedom of religion, and it remains to be seen the degree to which Egypt will be tolerant of others. But, let's face it, if your religion includes the idea that everyone should be require to observe its practices, and you gain control, than that is what is going to happen.

 

[macrobubble]

What angers me to no end is that in all islamic countries there is zero tolerance towards western values and believes, while at the same time they demand absolute tolerance in western countries for their own values and believes. Any arab immigrant residing in european countries is outraged if there is the slightest whiff of discrimination. They demand the right to build mosques, practice whatever rites their religion demands, want to preserve their "cultural and religious identity" while living in foreign countries, even if that conflicts with the local laws. They mutilate the genitals of their daughters, force them into arranged marriages, sometimes even kill them in the name of "family honor" if they dare to resist and publically condemn the western way of live - while living in a western society and enjoying all the possibilities that exactly that way of live offers them.
Try that in a arab country! Try to build a christian church in Iran or the KSA, try to live there according to your own western "cultural and religious identity" and you will encounter all kind of problems. Tolerance can not be a one-way-street! If muslims (rightfully) demand tolerance, they have to show it themselves.

Egypt has been pretty tolerant in the past. This made Egypt a major tourism destination and earned them a respected place in the world. Foreigners could come to Egypt, enjoy a good time here (while still respecting some cultural rules, e.g. regarding nudity, behaviour in public etc.) and the country and its people have profited to a great extend. Billions of Euros and millions of jobs helped with the development of the country. If some dumba... fundamentalists want Egypt to return to the stoneages, to turn back the clock a couple of centuries and to isolate the country internationally, it would only hurt the people of Egypt. The tourists will find other destinations. They´d be sad, but get over it quickly. Sharm would return to be a empty ghosttown, the ruins of the hotels being the remnants of better days. The reefs would recover, the marine life would blossom - but the people would starve. Egypt is not like the KSA, that can exist without tourism because they sit on an ocean of oil (which will be running out eventually anyway). Without the oil, Saudi Arabia would be a poor, backward country with a huge dessert and hungry people. It would be completely powerless, having nothing to offer to the world, having no money to feed millions of hungry mouths. Egypt has no wealth of that magnitude! If the foreigners, the tourists are driven out of the country, all the major industrial investors will soon follow. Egypt has neither the knowhow nor the resources nor the educated manpower to selfsustain any kind of industry without western help. And it is impossible for Egypt to be just an agricultural country. The production of wheat and corn is only about half of the consumption. The rest must be imported. By sheer logic it is in the best interest of Egypt to not cut of the hand that feeds them! Without tourism, Egypt is doomed! I have yet to see or hear of any economic plan that can sustain a country of that size with more than 80 million people, a high illiterate rate, a malfunctioning educational system and a completely incompetent bureaucracy, without tourism being a major part of it.

So, Egypt needs an influx of foreign money to survive economically! That money can short term only come from tourism. To sustain tourism, it needs tolerance towards those that leave their money here. The future of Sharm, Hurghada, Marsa Alam, El Gouna, Dahab, El Quseir, Safaga, Nuweiba, Taba, Luxor and so on, and so on, the future of the millions of workers who depend directly or indirecty on tourism depend only on Egypt being attractive enough to spend your hard earned money here. If that attraction is destroyed by intolerant and narrow minded religious nuts, the next revolution looms on the horizon! Hungry people don´t make happy citizens...

 

[boulderjohn]

So, Egypt needs an influx of foreign money to survive economically! That money can short term only come from tourism. To sustain tourism, it needs tolerance towards those that leave their money here.

What follows is a generic statement about religious thought which can be applied to this situation to the degree you think fits.

One of the most important works in the history of the Middle East, Homer's Odyssey, contains a powerful example the point I will make. Odysseus and his men are marooned on the island of the sun god, Helios. The island is full of fat cattle, but the men are all starving to death because the gods have commanded that they cannot eat those cattle, and there is nothing else to eat there. While Odysseus goes off to pray, one of the men makes an argument much like the one you made. The men are persuaded, a cow is butchered, and Odysseus returns in horror to see the men feasting. He refuses to eat. Eventually, of course, everyone but Odysseus dies as a result of the god's fury.

To the truly devout, the message is clear: the gods did not say "don't eat the cattle unless you are really hungry." They said "don't eat the cattle!" Disobedience is disobedience no matter what the situation.

All the religions from that area share that same ideal. The Old Testament, which is a part of all three religions, is filled with such stories that stress the importance of obedience to the will of God (or Allah, which is a variation of the most common name for the God of the Old Testament, Elohim). If the god says that you must rule your nation in accordance with his holy laws, then that is what you must do, whatever the consequences, because eventually he will bless you for it. You just have to be as patient as Odysseus.

When extremism in any religion takes hold, as it does from time to time, it can withstand pressure from moderate elements for a very long time because the extremist in theory is a representative of the ideal follower of the religion. If you challenge the beliefs of the extremist, then you are ultimately challenging your own beliefs. If the ideal follower is wrong, then why are you not wrong as well?

But the most important argument is that the troubles you face are a punishment brought upon you by the gods because you were not observant enough. Even if you become the most devout nation on earth, there will always be some corner of minor iniquity that can be blamed for your troubles. Root it out and you will be saved. You see that in America, where television preachers can't wait to get on the air after some disaster to claim that it is God's vengeance for allowing gay marriage or for some other horrible sin.

It happens everywhere. Some day it will pass. It might not be in your lifetime, but someday it will pass.

 

[macrobubble]

If the god says that you must rule your nation in accordance with his holy laws, then that is what you must do, whatever the consequences,

...and I can accept that!
But as I wrote: Those that are the most intolerant towards us, demand absolute tolerance from us! We must accept everything they do while they accept nothing we do. And on top of that they want to live in our countries (and I have no problem with that!) while they don´t want us to live in theirs.

An estimated 2.7 million Egyptians abroad contribute actively to the development of their country through remittances (US$ 7.8 billion in 2009), as well as circulation of human and social capital and investment.

wikipedia


They have no problem taking advantage of the possibilities our countries offer them, while closing their doors to us. It is those double standards that annoy me! I do not condemn the religion, don´t get me wrong, I simply ask for equal rights, equal treatment and equal possibilities!

 

[boulderjohn]

...and I can accept that!
But as I wrote: Those that are the most intolerant towards us, demand absolute tolerance from us! We must accept everything they do while they accept nothing we do. And on top of that they want to live in our countries (and I have no problem with that!) while they don´t want us to live in theirs. wikipedia


They have no problem taking advantage of the possibilities our countries offer them, while closing their doors to us. It is those double standards that annoy me! I do not condemn the religion, don´t get me wrong, I simply ask for equal rights, equal treatment and equal possibilities!

I see your point, and I have long agreed. I, too, think it is ironic that some people demand that people in their country demand that all who visit follow their laws but at the same time demand that they be allowed to live in accordance with their own laws when they visit--or move to--other countries.

But that is what happens when you are convinced that your way is the one and only right way. Your god demands that you follow his laws wherever you go, so you must do all that you can to make that happen.

You can be as unhappy as you like about it, but it will not help. You see them as being unfair for not letting you do as you like. They see you as despicable because you do not follow holy law. How will you change that?