Thoughts on the future of Sharm

[boulderjohn]

I forgot to mention that the concept of "equal rights" is fairly new in this world and is not a concept shared by everyone. Many see it as an insane concept, in fact. If you want equal rights. you have to live somewhere where the people who wrote the laws believe in that concept. Even then, you are pretty limited, as we see in the U.S.

 

[macrobubble]

You can be as unhappy as you like about it, but it will not help. You see them as being unfair for not letting you do as you like. They see you as despicable because you do not follow holy law. How will you change that?

I don´t even expect that I can do whatever I like. As a guest to this country I respect local laws and cultural rules. My girlfriend and I do not exchange affectionate gestures in public, she dresses carefully to not offend anyone (no headscarf, though!), we are not big on alcohol anyway and can both live without pork quite happily and so on...
That´s not the problem. I just don´t want to be treated as a lesser being! I just want acceptance as being different while not being regarded as being of lesser worth as a human being. I only want to be shown human decency!

And regarding the concept of "equal rights":
Human societies have evolved from living in caves and bashing the other tribes heads in with clubs to a (hopefully) more and more peaceful coexistence while bridging (and accepting) differences. All major religions basically promote peace. But since people are different, peace can only be had if those differences are acknowledged and tolerated. How can there be peace between man or nations without accepting your human brother on a basic level. If one group of people for whatever reason (religion, race, gender etc.) feels superior to another and oppresses those that are different, this has never in the history of mankind lead to anything good. Trying to change people by using force or oppression, depriving them of their basic human rights (also a pretty new concept) does not establish a free society where one can live a decent live. Wasn´t the egyptian revolution a call for freedom in the first place? How can you start a new, free society when the first step you take is to oppress others? It is the biggest irony that the MB, which was suppressed by Mubarak now steps into his shoes by wanting to suppress others. They are not willing to grant the tolerance and freedom they demand for themselves. In my eyes they are hypocrites who are only powerhungry but don´t really care for the people. Religion for them is just an excuse to have power over others...

 

[Red Sea Leonfish]

Here is an interesting article I read tonight, about the beaches and the bikini thing...

Thanks for posting that link Crowley. It certainly makes interesting - albeit worrying - reading!

It does suggest that "with protests, strikes, and continued violence in the cities and Sinai Peninsula months after President Husni Mubarak was forced to step down, foreigners have hesitated to visit the country". I was under the impression that the Sinai Peninsula was and has remained fairly stable?

On particular point worth noting though is the following comment:

"Islamists have never been enamored of foreign tourism and before they were crushed by the Mubarak regime foreign visitors were often targeted for killings. Close to 60 Western tourists were killed by Islamist terrorists in the southern city of Luxor in 1997. Tourists were also attacked in bombings in the Sinai resorts of Taba, Sharm Al-Sheikh and Dahab in 2004, 2005 and 2006."

Lessons from history show us that those who feel marginalised will, ultimately, make their voices heard or their feelings felt. The same can only be true of the MB and their fledgling political party. Whilst we might all disagree with their proposed policies and fear for the financial security of those dependent upon toursism (like the Sharm boat crews who I agree are generally a fine group of chaps for whom I have nothing but respect and gratitude for numerous fun days on and under the Red Sea), it has, at least, to be acknowledged that it is some progress that they are chosing to advance their ideals politically rather than through violence. However, when such ideals are promoted under the threat of a potential return to violence then it really is a case of taking one step forwards and two steps back.

The real challenge for Egypt, will be to find a way forwards where they can achieve a real compromise between the differing factions whereby the economic prosperity of the nation is safeguarded without marginalising any one group (whether hardline Islamists, Christians or liberals). With the tourist industry in South Sinai in decline, either a 'political bombshell' or another physical attack could be the end of the touristic dive trade. We can only hope that it doesn't come to that.

 

[String]

The new large scale troop and tank movements into Sinai to try to control the Bedouin hasn't helped last week. Plus the usual israeli overreaction and irrational lashing out resulting in 5 egyptian security people being killed INSIDE Egypt. Its tense here now. Battle tanks fully visible by main roads etc.

The demographic has switched suddenly in a few weeks - very few British people now, its nearly all poles, czechs and russians.

The MB don't want tourism. They've stated as much. Nobody knows exactly if/when elections will be held anyway.

Ramadan now so even less is happening than normal (and the hotel staff here are hiding in the toilet cubicles or behind remote buildings smoking like hell as they're not meant to be doing it at all).

As for religion, ive got no problem with someone being religious provided they do NOT preach it to anyone else or try to force it on another person, ESPECIALLY brainwashing kids. I also reserve the right to call you retarded if you insist on talking to me about your deluded beliefs.
Note:- This applies to ALL religions.

 

[Hillmorton Scubie]

Sadly religions are not simply harmless nonsense. For me, they are a terrible man made invention that has caused untold war's and human suffering. It astounds me that in the 21st century, millions of people without even the slightest of evidence still believe in gods. However i respect people's right to believe as they wish.

 

[Crowley]

Human societies have evolved from living in caves and bashing the other tribes heads in with clubs to a (hopefully) more and more peaceful coexistence while bridging (and accepting) differences.

I disagree with my tongue in my cheek... human societies have evolved from living in caves and bashing the other tribes' heads in with clubs to... living in expensive high rise apartment buildings and bashing whole nations over the head with hi-tech weaponry...!

The topic has gone back to religion again which is always incendiary and I'm trying very hard to stick to my semi-sort-of-promise that I wouldn't discuss my own ideas on the subject in this forum, a country going through political upheaval with a very tolerant, but very devout muslim population and a very vociferous political presence who are starting to make their voices heard again after years of suppression by Mubarak. For all his faults, I think that this was very clever and overall beneficial to the country. Without the religious extremism practiced by other national rulers, Egypt has become a very popular tourist destination - as opposed to, say, Afghanistan.

Allowing a religiously-based government into power would be like returning to the stone age, where people club each other to death with rocks - a bit like women who commit extra-marital sex in some very conservative parts of the world are stoned to death by their friends and neighbours. Imagine if Sharia law was imposed on American college campuses! The entire nation would run out of stones to throw!

The whole thing about women covering themselves in the Koran is so that they basically don't appear tempting to other men - when in my strange and unusual opinion, if two people are together then that should not even be an issue. Is a beautiful woman committing a sin because she's beautiful and men are attracted to her? Does that make her a sinner and a criminal? Are all western women *****s? Some Egyptians think so - and women from certain central European countries find it very difficult to get visas here, because yes, there is a prostitution racket in Sharm El Sheikh. The perpetual harrassment of women here is sickening and divebunnie will know exactly what I'm talking about when I write "ssss, sss, sssssssss"

So in terms of equal rites? It doesn't exist here, rather like it doesn't exist anywhere, really. And these are not accusations leveled solely at Egypt - do not forget, for example, that the conservative christian section of the American population has a very powerful voice and a huge amount of influence in the American political arena and comes with its own extremist christian-based sub-cultures.

Unfortunately, the sad fact is, it's all about the money. Tourism is not the biggest earner in Egypt, but 10 billion dollars per year is not to be sniffed at. More importantly, I think, the tourism industry employs a lot of people. They may be low-paid jobs, but at least there are jobs, and history has proven that a lot of people on low wages will take to the streets and fight for the right to keep them, rather than earn nothing at all.

I'm still hopeful, but I'll be honest, the level of hopefulness is hmm shall we say, not increasing.

Still waiting to see....Cheers

C.

 

[macrobubble]

I disagree with my tongue in my cheek... human societies have evolved from living in caves and bashing the other tribes' heads in with clubs to... living in expensive high rise apartment buildings and bashing whole nations over the head with hi-tech weaponry...!

Yeah, but overall nowadays most nations live in peace with each other. Just look at Europe and the wars they were fighting in the past. I see the glass rather half full than half empty...

The topic has gone back to religion again...

Yes(*sigh*), I know, I´m sorry, but when we discuss the future of Sharm (and all Egypt, for that matter) we discuss politics. And politics seems to be unseperable from religion in Egypt.

For all his (Mubaraks) faults, I think that this was very clever and overall beneficial to the country. Without the religious extremism practiced by other national rulers, Egypt has become a very popular tourist destination - as opposed to, say, Afghanistan.

I am really afraid that there will come a time when a portion of the population would wish he were still in power. Egypt is no democracy and the egyptian people have never "learned" democracy. Whoever wins the election, whoever will form the government or be president - there will always be a huge faction that disagrees with the outcome. I have the sad feeling that they will not quietly sit back and think "OK, let´s try again on the next election"! I fear for months, if not years of infighting. The terrible thing is, that the "facebook generation", those guys and girls that effectively started the revolution, will not see their dreams of a free, democratic and secular society be fullfilled. Just to remid you: it was the MB that in the very beginning was opposed to the revolution. They jumped on the wagon much later and are now using the new won freedom to further their own agenda. Some say, they "hijacked" the revolution: (just one example, you can find many more on the net)

Allowing a religiously-based government into power would be like returning to the stone age, where people club each other to death with rocks - a bit like women who commit extra-marital sex in some very conservative parts of the world are stoned to death by their friends and neighbours. Imagine if Sharia law was imposed on American college campuses! The entire nation would run out of stones to throw!

Yep!

The whole thing about women covering themselves in the Koran is so that they basically don't appear tempting to other men...

In my even stranger opinion, it is the men that are at fault if they can not control themselves! Even if a woman was to run naked around town, it is the mens responsibility to exercise restraint towards this temptation. And, btw, isn´t it a very religious thing to resist temptation? Isn´t exactly the ability to resist temptation prove of faithfullness? Therefore, shouldn´t a devout muslim be indifferent towards "cheap" women? It is easier to blame the devil for the temptations he puts in front of you than to blame yourself for not being able to resist them! Making women to cover themselves is nothing but a sign of male weakness! The weakness, not being able to control their own lust. So, as I see it, it is the mens lust (and lack of control), that is to blame and not the womens!

So in terms of equal rites (sic!)? It doesn't exist here, rather like it doesn't exist anywhere, really.

...but that can not and should not mean we shouldn´t reach for it! Change and progress always start with a dream of change!

Unfortunately, the sad fact is, it's all about the money. Tourism is not the biggest earner in Egypt, but 10 billion dollars per year is not to be sniffed at. More importantly, I think, the tourism industry employs a lot of people. They may be low-paid jobs, but at least there are jobs, and history has proven that a lot of people on low wages will take to the streets and fight for the right to keep them, rather than earn nothing at all.

Exactely!
If it was to come to a situation where under a new government the standard of living would decline further, we will see demonstrations and uprisings on a new scale! We would then face the prospect of civil war in Egypt, because I strongly believe that islamists would rather fire upon their own people than give up power again. Look at Iran after the last election. The opposition movement was crushed with brutal force. Look everywhere where religious nuts govern a country. There is no freedom - there is nothing but brutal oppression of dissenting voices. Mubaraks regime, with all the torture chambers and police brutality would pale in comparison!

I'm still hopeful, but I'll be honest, the level of hopefulness is hmm shall we say, not increasing.

Neither is mine!

 

[macrobubble]

I find THIS quite interesting...

 

[boulderjohn]

I find THIS quite interesting...

Yes, and the last minute of that touches very strongly on the problem. If you see that it is your role to teach others how to live and govern, then you will not look to others as a role model for life and governance.

 

[OxygenThief]

At the risk of contributing to a thread that is definitley losing itself in a thicket of religious polemic, there are a couple of facts that are relevant to the future of the Red Sea resorts:

1. Geography, weather, fish life and transportation technology together dictate that the demand for what the Red Sea resorts have to offer to Europeans is virtually limitless. A mere four hour trip to a true acquatic paradise during the crappy season in Northern Europe is the ace of all tourism aces. It will take the metaphorical river of blood to eliminate this demand.

2. The terrorists (whose new commander in chief is an Egyptian as fate would have it) must view the Red Sea resorts as an incredibly fat target. Acres of lobster-red Europeans wandering around cluelessly are a bit like wounded baitfish flailing on a reef.

3. The Sinai is a place where politics are fraught even by Middle Eastern standards and a place of limited Egyptian government control. The funky mix of Egyptians, Bedouins, Palestinian infiltrators and Israelis is a fairly toxic brew.

It seems to me that there are only two ways this can go. Either (i) the waves of European tourism will overwhelm the situation (ie the money becomes so important that the Egyptians will do anything to preserve the bubble): or (ii) the situation will overwhelm the tourism. Certainly under the previous regime, option (i) was in full swing. It remains to be seen what will happen in the short term. In the long run though, the proximity of the Red Sea to Northern Europe and the lure of the tourist money will mean that too many interests exist for the tourism to be disrupted for any substantial period of time.

OT