Thoughts on post roll-offs and first stage hose routing

[Cave Diver]

I think the point is that you would re-order the team to put the OOG diver in front (of the donor) when that happened

Correct. The diver with an issue leads out (2 person team) or in the middle (3 person team). If you're in a 1 man team well....

 

[Ste Wart]

Correct. The diver with an issue leads out (2 person team) or in the middle (3 person team). If you're in a 1 man team well....

Guys you're making assumptions here. You're saying that a restriction could possibly roll-off a reg, which is fair. But who says that same restriction is going to be wide enough to allow a lead OOG diver to switch places?

 

[Cave Diver]

Guys you're making assumptions here. You're saying that a restriction could possibly roll-off a reg, which is fair. But who says that same restriction is going to be wide enough to allow a lead OOG diver to switch places?

No assumption. The OOG diver goes in front as soon as you start your exit. And the exit is started as soon as you have the problem sorted out. If the diver goes OOG *in* the restriction for the first time, that's a whole different can of worms.

 

[Tortuga68]

That makes sense

So, at the branch the lead diver would place a cookie on the line they are taking... the following diver would come to the junction and feel for a cookie, and then follow that line, knowing that a choice had been taken

If you then decided to back up and return to the junction and try an alternate route, how would you know which way to go?

Sorry, getting way off-topic now - maybe instead I should just ask for a link to an arrow and cookie placements thread. Or just wait until I take a cave class, it's not like I am going to be in this situation before then, just curious

 

[Cave Diver]

That makes sense

So, at the branch the lead diver would place a cookie on the line they are taking... the following diver would come to the junction and feel for a cookie, and then follow that line, knowing that a choice had been taken

If you then decided to back up and return to the junction and try an alternate route, how would you know which way to go?

Sorry, getting way off-topic now - maybe instead I should just ask for a link to an arrow and cookie placements thread. Or just wait until I take a cave class, it's not like I am going to be in this situation before then, just curious

I would place the cookie on the line I'm "leaving" (line a) That way I've identified that I've already been down that line. If I had to return to the cookie, I'd place two on the line I just tried (line b), to differentiate it from the original line (line a). I would also leave a cookie at my turn point on the line that I tried (line b), because if the next line (line c) didnt pan out, I'd want a reference when returning to the original decision (line b). However, the process for bouncing between multiple lines gets into advanced techniques that's beyond the scope of the current discussion.

Also, assuming a silt out, you're not likely to encounter complete lack of visibility in two separate passages. The presence (or lack of) silt should be one clue whether you're in the correct passage, depending on the conditions.

 

[Tortuga68]

Thanks for taking the time to answer my dumb questions!

 

[Cave Diver]

Thanks for taking the time to answer my dumb questions!

No problem. The same scenarios could apply to wreck diving as well but from what I've seen most wreck courses don't cover line handling as in depth as cave courses. While both environments are unique, with their own specific hazards, there is a certain degree of crossover as well.

 

[Cave Diver]

Guys you're making assumptions here. You're saying that a restriction could possibly roll-off a reg, which is fair. But who says that same restriction is going to be wide enough to allow a lead OOG diver to switch places?

I *think* we're slightly out of step with our scenario assessments.

In my scenario, the OOG situation occurs on the far side of a restriction. The team would sort out the situation by donating a long hose from diver a to diver b. This of course effectively ends the dive and both divers head out, with the OOG diver (diver b) in the lead. In the event that the exit requires navigating a restriction, IMO, it's preferrable for the long hose to be on the right post, so that a roll off will not affect the OOG diver who is on that post.

I'm not suggesting they switch places in the restriction. In fact, the difficulty of that is one of the reasons I advocate the long hose/right post setup and the OOG diver leads.

 

[Tortuga68]

No problem. The same scenarios could apply to wreck diving as well but from what I've seen most wreck courses don't cover line handling as in depth as cave courses. While both environments are unique, with their own specific hazards, there is a certain degree of crossover as well.

Indeed. My impression is that most of the skills are transposable, but as you say, each is unique enough to warrant it's own specialities. Depends on the cave/wreck but in general wrecks probably have more entrances/exits and less chance of permanent line/multiple teams and I would think definitely flow. Then again wrecks probably have more tie-off points and more chance for line traps and damage - again, generally speaking

I found it interesting reading Bernie Chowdhury's "Last Dive" and his application of cave diving techniques on the Andrea Doria ("a giant steel cave") - to my mind there are probably more techniques that can be applied from cave to wreck than vice versa

Ideally one day I'd like to get to Florida or Mexico for a cave course, it's just a bit difficult logistically for me at the moment

 

[Cave Diver]

Indeed. My impression is that most of the skills are transposable, but as you say, each is unique enough to warrant it's own specialities. Depends on the cave/wreck but in general wrecks probably have more entrances/exits and less chance of permanent line/multiple teams and I would think definitely flow. Then again wrecks probably have more tie-off points and more chance for line traps and damage - again, generally speaking

I found it interesting reading Bernie Chowdhury's "Last Dive" and his application of cave diving techniques on the Andrea Doria ("a giant steel cave") - to my mind there are probably more techniques that can be applied from cave to wreck than vice versa

Ideally one day I'd like to get to Florida or Mexico for a cave course, it's just a bit difficult logistically for me at the moment

One of the biggest differences to me is that caves are more of a static environment. We don't have the same concerns of a changing environment. With wreck diving, you may have to take into account changing current and conditions, finding the boat, etc.

Also, you're more likely to run into marine life in wrecks. We did one dive where we startled a large goliath grouper and I'm not sure who was more scared. Him, by the sudden intrusion of lights and bubbles into his hidey hole, or us by the sudden explosion of silt as it barreled past us heading for the exit.

Throw in sharp metal, bristle worms, fire coral and long boat rides and wrecks start to lose even more of their appeal (to me). Typically there will be less flow, thus more silt inside a wreck, and deteriorating metal that could leave to a collapse and I find wrecks to be more risky.

Lots of crossover, but many differences as well.