OP
Yes of course, my question is what part of their body are you physically touching eg upper arm? thigh?
Thoughts on post roll-offs and first stage hose routing
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Yes of course, my question is what part of their body are you physically touching eg upper arm? thigh?
cool_hardware52
Contributor
Most cave divers I know usually do a check anytime they contact the ceiling as soon as they're past the restriction.
But allow me to run a scenario by you. You're exiting a tight restriction with an OOG diver (upstream cow comes to mind). Your long hose is on your left post and the passage is tight enough to restrict your movements. You contact the ceiling and the post rolls off, maybe not completely, but enough to cause breathing resistance. Now the diver ahead of you is blocking your progress because they're excited due to difficulty breathing. You can't push past them, and if you pull back, you're gonna yank the reg out of their mouth. You don't know *why* they're excited, because you can breathe just fine. And the restriction is tight enough that you can't easily reach your valves to check.
What do you do?
Depends on the passage and the circumstances. If it's large enough to swim side by side, maybe upper arm. If not, then thigh or calf. Grabbing a leg restricts their ability to kick, but if the passage is tight enough to require single file exit they're not likely doing full frog kicks anyway.
OP
So the 'default' or preferred position, assuming enough room, would be you maintaining touch contact with your right hand on their left bicep; and if you came to a restriction, you would move back to right hand/left thigh or calf accordingly? And your long hose would be coming off your right post, under the OOG diver?
I wouldn't say there is a default position. Every cave is different. Line placement is going to dictate your positioning. Whenever you're navigating a restriction, a tie-off, placement, whatever you're likely to change your position. There may be instances where you have to lose touch contact with each other to navigate an obstacle, but you should never lose touch contact with the line. The line is what will get you out, not your buddy.
How do you handle this situation in wrecks?
ucfdiver
Contributor
Yup. Basically line on the floor is easiest to follow, on the ceiling seems to last longer after floods and such.
OP
I gather you got around to checking my Tek2Tek application
My wreck penetration experience is pretty much limited to the Advanced Wreck cert I did in Subic last year. I have done some other wreck dives but not true penetration (light locked) or laying/following line
What we learned on the course was OOG diver following (hence why I was asking earlier - but OOG in front makes more sense to me now) with touch contact at the thigh - left hand to right thigh specifically since the long hose is off the right post, although as you say we did cross over according to the environment
I found thigh contact a little difficult to maintain sometimes, as the following diver - as you said, the kicking can be an issue - and a couple of times the hose got tight, although I didn't lose it. Although actually it wasn't as difficult to maintain as I had thought it might be
Sometimes at a wrap or tie the lead diver would reach back to guide the following diver's hands onto the forward section of the line, which also changed things
I'd need/want more practice at it/better technique to feel confident to maintain good contact during an actual blind exit (as opposed to a drill)
Recently I've been reading the copy of 'Blueprint for Survival' that James kindly mailed for me, which shows the Rimbach system (bicep) with the leading diver being the OOG diver (albeit they show 5' hose - yes it's 1986 vintage, soo... things change)
So, this is why I'm asking
We always put the diver with difficulties in front. Whether its a gas problem, a light problem or an equipment issue. The exception to that is in a three man team, where we would put that diver diver in the middle so either the first or third could respond to additional problems. The downside to that method is that if the first or third were to have a problem, the middle diver is less equipped to deal with it. But then you start getting into the LHOP scenarios.
I'd be hesitant to use this method. Individual divers verifying the line for themselves reduces the chance of mistakes. There may be an instance where a tie off goes in more than one direction. i.e. two passages intersect. If the first diver makes a navigational error, the second diver is essentially on a "trust me" dive if they allow their hand to be placed on the forward section.
BabyDuck
Contributor
what ever body part you can reach. that said, we have practiced that the following diver is driving the train so the leading one doesn't have to kick much to keep going. that keeps the lead diver's thigh still-er. works pretty well for 2 person team, not as well for 3 due to the communication lag.
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