DIR- GUE Thoughts on Halcyon Symbios as an entry point into CCR diving vs a specialized tool?

[RedSix]

I am not in that group, and am asking just out of curiosity.

How is a person supposed to learn? To me it's normal that people take an introductory class, they go doing easy dives and learn... What's wrong with that?

You take the intro class. During the class it is explained, how the CCR technically works and also what to do and what not to do and why. You need to understand, what the pre-dive checks check. And if a check fails how to look for the reason and how to fix it. In many cases you can break down the problems to four or five basic principles (how does an O ring work, what does the solenoid, which battery is for what and so on...). And with this basic information, you all got during your intro class, you go diving and learn. And if you have a problem, try to fix it yourself and also have a look at the manual.
Some people treat a rebreather like a magic life support box without understanding the basic working principles. If a problem occurs, the instructor or somebody else with more knowledge or even some random dudes from the internet need to step in and fix the problem. And in my opinion this wrong.

 

[ginti]

@RedSix I respectfully disagree. Maybe I understand what you write incorrectly, but to me you are describing the situation as if people who take an introductory class are:
- either learning everything quickly and well (extremely rare to. Almost impossible)
- or treating rebreathers like magic boxes (not impossible, it should never happen, but many people like this exist unfortunately).

And nothing else.

In my experience, the vast majority of people actually sits between these two extremes, which is why it doesn't disturb me that people ask questions at the beginning of their CCR journey.

That said, I mentioned I am not in that group - and if most of the people are like "let's dive the magic box" I support you 100%.

Anyway, quite off topic, but thanks for explaining your perspective - I find it valuable (and I bet @PfcAJ sees it the same way as you)

 

[RedSix]

In my experience, the vast majority of people actually sits between these two extremes, which is why it doesn't disturb me that people ask questions at the beginning of their CCR journey.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing bad about questions. But some basic principles should be understood during the intro class. And I am really referring to basic basic stuff.

That said, I mentioned I am not in that group - and if most of the people are like "let's dive the magic box" I support you 100%.

Not most, but still a few. In my opinion even a few are to many. This "magic box" can kill you.
And if you don't understand the basic stuff of the machine, you always need somebody else to step in. And during a demanding project or a demanding dive every distraction is a problem. And this is what the CCR is made for: demanding dives. Not for 60min in a mill pond...

 

[ginti]

And this is what the CCR is made for: demanding dives. Not for 60min in a mill pond...

True, but after quite some experience, not just after an intro class

 

[lostsheep]

The immediate problem I see is that the long hose config won't work according to GUE standards with a chest mount rebreather.

Why do you think a long hose would NOT work with a CM rebreather?

I’m calling BS

 

[ginti]

Why do you think a long hose would NOT work with a CM rebreather?

I’m calling BS

In the GUE OC configuration, the long hose stays on your chest.

If you have a chestmounted rebreather, you have a rebreather on your chest.

Surely they'll find a way to make it work (by routing the hose on top of the rebreather or its right side), but almost surely it won't be as streamlined as in OC.

 

[lostsheep]

In the GUE OC configuration, the long hose stays on your chest.

If you have a chestmounted rebreather, you have a rebreather on your chest.

Surely they'll find a way to make it work (by routing the hose on top of the rebreather or its right side), but almost surely it won't be as streamlined as in OC.

I’d ask if you have ever dived a CM with a long hose but the answer is apparent.

You can wrap and donate a long hose just fine on a CM by looping under the bottom of the unit instead of under a canister. Additionally compared to a BM unit, the long hose is not trapped under the loop so leaving the loop is not necessary to donate.

 

[ginti]

I’d ask if you have ever dived a CM with a long hose but the answer is apparent.

You can wrap and donate a long hose just fine on a CM by looping under the bottom of the unit instead of under a canister. Additionally compared to a BM unit, the long hose is not trapped under the loop so leaving the loop is not necessary to donate.

Thi has nothing to do with what I said - but luckily my post is there, you can read it again as much as you want

 

[lostsheep]

Thi has nothing to do with what I said - but luckily my post is there, you can read it again as much as you want

If you say so.

Something is lost in translation here and the onus is not on me.

 

[rjack321]

Are there other CCRs you think GUE should have gone with instead of the JJ? Or do you think the inclusion of CCRs were a mistake?

They already had the RB80 and could have encouraged that unit instead of keeping the RB80 instructor pool as a very tiny gate keeper. The JJ basically has the same weak spots as the RB80 (its heavy AF especially in the GUE configuration) and offers nothing magical benefit-wise.

The RB80 with al40s or lp50s in "non-cave mode" is much more aligned with their past perspectives on O2 cells and electronics in general. You can't put lp85s on the JJ and run it as a "cave CCR" which is a big flaw -although you can SM your BO on the JJ that's not what's happening. People continue to use lp50s even though that's a pitiful amount of on-board BO.

If the agency were consistent in their position, they would never have adopted a unit beyond the RB80 which works perfectly well for all stated goals by changing the onboard cylinder size to scale it to the dive at hand. The biggest weakness of the RB80 is the weak sales.