Primary question: Where does the Halcyon Symbios fit in the GUE training program and eco-system?
From my perspective as an inexperienced OC-only diver, there are two different scenarios/applications I can think of that are not necessarily mutually exclusive:
1. A specialized tool for cave exploration
2. An entry point into CCR diving
So which do you think GUE is going for?
- Is it going to be paired with the new CCR Fundamentals class as an entry point into the GUE CCR progression?
- Or be a specialized tool in a more advanced class? More like the RB80 or Cave sidemount?
- A combination?
- Something different that I've missed?
And do you think they are right or wrong to do it, and why?
I'm not looking for bashing in this thread, I just find it interesting to hear arguments for and against this development, by people with more experience then myself, so that I can learn from it and understand the issue better. And I have noticed that people in the community are either excited or sceptical/confused about this.
Bonus questions:
Where/how does it fit next to the JJ? Where do they overlap and where do they not? Is mixed CCR team diving (JJ + Symbios) a thing, or does it compromise the standardized equipment philosophy? Would the symbios be better or worse in a mixed team (OC/CCR)?
-----My wall-of-text ramblings below, feel free to skip, unless you want to educate me on my lack of understanding-----
Re. point 1: I can imagine there are advantages in terms of logistics with hard to reach caves/sumps, and in terms of removing the unit to pass through restrictions. Maybe also as backup/staged/BOB etc. These things are obviously way above my pay grade, so I don't presume to understand the ins and outs of this use, and from what I've seen other units do fulfill a lot of these roles, and maybe much better for all I know - like the Gemini, RB80 etc.
Re. point 2: for a diver with absolutely no experience with CCRs like myself, this actually sounds quite appealing. The thought of keeping my OC rig that I'm very familiar and comfortable with, and adding a CM unit to it to learn CCR diving with a goal of slowly expanding bottom times and depths seems intuitively like a nice progression, compared to switching to a JJ. Now, I'm personally several years off any possible transition to a CCR, so this is primarily for my curiosity, but also a part of researching/thinking about what my future might hold. So with my beginner mind, I see some advantages:
- Familiarity with the OC part of the rig, and possibly easier(?) integration into mixed team diving?
- Travel-friendly unit: if I go down the CCR route, I hope to travel to use it both in caves and ocean, and the JJ seems harder to travel with
- Less bottles/gear total: easy to switch between diving CC and OC, using my doubles for both
It seems less advantageous for very deep ocean dives, but realistically I'm not sure how much of that I'll be doing at any point, if ever. Maybe that would change over time, but while again if at that point getting another unit is needed/beneficial, maybe it shouldn't decide what would be a better first unit? Or maybe my intuition is off, and I should stick to the mantra of "beginning with the end in mind". Or maybe I shouldn't even switch to CCR if I'm not planning on doing those dives in the first place. I will obviously learn a lot more and probably have a better perspective by the time I'm considering actually doing CCR training. But again, for someone wanting to expand the ability to do more and longer dives in the 40-70m range, travel, dive mixed teams, dive caves - would something like the Symbios maybe be a pretty good place to start?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ETA: Moved the disclaimers to the bottom...
Disclaimer 1: Obviously the Halcyon Symbios is not available yet, not passed CE tests yet and GUE hasn't launched a training program for it yet, but judging by what I've seen, heard and read from GUE sources – like the latest Quest issue – it seems like it's only a matter of time
Disclaimer 2: I know there are several threads about CM CCR vs BM CCR etc, but I am interested in hearing more specifically about how this fits into the GUE/DIR philosophy of diving and dive training, how you think it will and should (or not) be included, and I know there are some people on SB that could shed some light on this topic.
PS.
Maybe @johnkendall want to share some thoughts on this, if you have anything you could share at this point..?
From my perspective as an inexperienced OC-only diver, there are two different scenarios/applications I can think of that are not necessarily mutually exclusive:
1. A specialized tool for cave exploration
2. An entry point into CCR diving
So which do you think GUE is going for?
- Is it going to be paired with the new CCR Fundamentals class as an entry point into the GUE CCR progression?
- Or be a specialized tool in a more advanced class? More like the RB80 or Cave sidemount?
- A combination?
- Something different that I've missed?
And do you think they are right or wrong to do it, and why?
I'm not looking for bashing in this thread, I just find it interesting to hear arguments for and against this development, by people with more experience then myself, so that I can learn from it and understand the issue better. And I have noticed that people in the community are either excited or sceptical/confused about this.
Bonus questions:
Where/how does it fit next to the JJ? Where do they overlap and where do they not? Is mixed CCR team diving (JJ + Symbios) a thing, or does it compromise the standardized equipment philosophy? Would the symbios be better or worse in a mixed team (OC/CCR)?
-----My wall-of-text ramblings below, feel free to skip, unless you want to educate me on my lack of understanding-----
Re. point 1: I can imagine there are advantages in terms of logistics with hard to reach caves/sumps, and in terms of removing the unit to pass through restrictions. Maybe also as backup/staged/BOB etc. These things are obviously way above my pay grade, so I don't presume to understand the ins and outs of this use, and from what I've seen other units do fulfill a lot of these roles, and maybe much better for all I know - like the Gemini, RB80 etc.
Re. point 2: for a diver with absolutely no experience with CCRs like myself, this actually sounds quite appealing. The thought of keeping my OC rig that I'm very familiar and comfortable with, and adding a CM unit to it to learn CCR diving with a goal of slowly expanding bottom times and depths seems intuitively like a nice progression, compared to switching to a JJ. Now, I'm personally several years off any possible transition to a CCR, so this is primarily for my curiosity, but also a part of researching/thinking about what my future might hold. So with my beginner mind, I see some advantages:
- Familiarity with the OC part of the rig, and possibly easier(?) integration into mixed team diving?
- Travel-friendly unit: if I go down the CCR route, I hope to travel to use it both in caves and ocean, and the JJ seems harder to travel with
- Less bottles/gear total: easy to switch between diving CC and OC, using my doubles for both
It seems less advantageous for very deep ocean dives, but realistically I'm not sure how much of that I'll be doing at any point, if ever. Maybe that would change over time, but while again if at that point getting another unit is needed/beneficial, maybe it shouldn't decide what would be a better first unit? Or maybe my intuition is off, and I should stick to the mantra of "beginning with the end in mind". Or maybe I shouldn't even switch to CCR if I'm not planning on doing those dives in the first place. I will obviously learn a lot more and probably have a better perspective by the time I'm considering actually doing CCR training. But again, for someone wanting to expand the ability to do more and longer dives in the 40-70m range, travel, dive mixed teams, dive caves - would something like the Symbios maybe be a pretty good place to start?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ETA: Moved the disclaimers to the bottom...
Disclaimer 1: Obviously the Halcyon Symbios is not available yet, not passed CE tests yet and GUE hasn't launched a training program for it yet, but judging by what I've seen, heard and read from GUE sources – like the latest Quest issue – it seems like it's only a matter of time
Disclaimer 2: I know there are several threads about CM CCR vs BM CCR etc, but I am interested in hearing more specifically about how this fits into the GUE/DIR philosophy of diving and dive training, how you think it will and should (or not) be included, and I know there are some people on SB that could shed some light on this topic.
PS.
Maybe @johnkendall want to share some thoughts on this, if you have anything you could share at this point..?
