Thoughts in Dive Cancellations

[boulderjohn]

no offence BoulderJohn, but I seem to recall another recent thread about cancellations and refunds by another Coloradan. Lol. This must be a hit button topic in the Rockies.

Yep, I started a thread on this a couple of years ago. It is a sore subject with me. When I go to a place with the intention of diving, I hope to dive, and I don't like it when it doesn't happen for reasons that are not my fault. I don't think I am alone with that. Apaprently some dive operators think they can blithely write off people like me. Maybe they can. But that won't stop me from being hopping mad, and that won't stop me from complaining.

 

[scubaguy655]

I have heard of this happening with a particular op in key largo a few years ago.

I personally try and dive with the ops that will go out with a minimum of 2 for this very reason. This type of service keeps me coming back.

 

[bada3003]

As a customer, I don't appreciate flaky boat charters nor fellow customers that change things at the last minute. Predictability makes commercial ventures thrive, and dive charters are no exception. Indications are that boat charters and LDS's, for the most part, are not great money making gold mines, so everyone benefits if there's a more stable environment.

Assuming there are enough like-minded people in a market sector, I would like to see the following: customers reserve with a credit card and they can cancel w/o penalty 5 days in advance. Else, whether they show up or not, the customer gets charged. 5 days is just an example but it provides leeway for weekend planning purposes. The charter operator has a minimum, say 4-5 for smaller boats. If at 5 days in advance the minimum is not reached, the reservation is automatically cancelled and the customer has time to make alternative plans (there are other activities besides diving).

If the minimum is reached, obviously the operator must head out, weather permitting, since he's collected the fees irrespective of how many divers show up. There is the matter of tips for the DM, which is effected by the actual number of folks showing up but there are ways to handle it. Either the operator pitches in or there is a nominal fee included in the reservation. They are, of course, equivalent in the end.

Flaky customers will flock to flaky charter operators and they're free to operate as they see fit. For those who appreciate predictability -- that darn weather is another matter altogether, but then there are springs and quarries as backup -- I think we'd end up with a business model that makes sense for some of us.

 

[Mike]

Why would you complain about others cancelling (for whatever reason) then say that you would do the same thing and not expect to pay?

Thank you! I can't believe I read that too. I really can't stand consumers who think they are owed something special just because they have made a purchased of a companies product or service just like everybody has done day after day, yet they think they are special. I think of those consumers as hostage takers, they hold businesses hostage with silent, veiled or vocal threats, most of the businesses know what these consumers are doing and they reluctantly give into these consumers with a fake smile, the consumer is successful on their quest of hostage taking and even thinks the business values their business meanwhile the business hopes that particular consumer loses their phone number and calls their competitor next time so they can focus their resources on good customers who's repeat business they do actually want.

I've dived the keys and there are many different ops, and there are many different business concepts among those ops, one of them is building a business on a reputation of being a 'sure' or 'surer' thing for diving than other ops, and another concept is not doing so, another concept is being a lower priced op. As a consumer you simply purchase the service you want and spend more to get more. The 'sure thing' ops aren't the lowest priced for a reason and when you choose lower priced ops you get what you didn't pay for. When we dive the keys we pay the higher prices for the sure thing op and always have happy stories to tell at the end of the dive vacation, and we don't do business with the cheaper ops who have reputations of canceling dives all the time. I've never found it more complicated than that.

 

[Steve_C]

If at 5 days in advance the minimum is not reached, the reservation is automatically cancelled and the customer has time to make alternative plans (there are other activities besides diving).

On our local boats that would not work at all. There are a lot of local divers who jump on if there is a slot open and the weather looks good. I have seen many charters get the needed number of divers with only a day or two to go. I have done that many times myself. See the weather is looking good, a day opens up. so you pop down for a couple dives.

 

[drrich2]

I have no problem with a small fee, say $10 per tank or some such, for cancellations that aren't well in advance. It's like the issue with 'no-shows' at Doctors' offices; you're not just paying for goods & services, you're also paying for a time slot, which that business sets aside for you and denies others.

A large boat that will go out regardless of whether you book them might not 'lose' anything, if they were going out anyway, and had enough slots for all comers whether you came or not.

But if they may have to turn away paying business, then it stands to reason, you take that slot, you pay a token fee. If this would prevent people from making 'just in case, Plan B or C' bookings they don't intend to use, I'm fine with that. In this day and age, the moral fiber of the public is not sufficient to warrant not setting policy so you don't get misused.

If you choose to waive the fee for reputable regulars you know and wish to maintain good will with, or people you have good reason to believe had a bona fide major reason not to show up (e.g.: bad weather shut down the airport, so they couldn't fly in), fine.

Richard.

 

[dkramer]

I live in Florida & am able to dive weekdays, during the summer. I always ask about ops cancellation policies & if they won't go out with 2 minimum, then I don't book with them. My friend from Ohio spends a chunk of change to come down & dive for a week & to have dives cancelled at the last minute is not what I want to have happen. If we're in Key Largo, we go with Ocean Divers. If we're in West Palm, we go with Ocean Quest.

 

[Goodtime Adventures]

Hello, dive OP here. This can be a tricky one as both parties have potential to lose out if an effective cancellation policy is not in place. I appreciate this may not work for everyone, as there will be regional differences, but if it helps anyone, here's how we operate...

We sell trips and courses (and not just diving - rock climbing, abseiling, cliff jumping, watersports, boat charters etc too) online, over the phone and in person to walk ins. If a customer wishes to book we ask for a deposit - nothing huge, but enough to deter no shows. Walk in customers pay this in cash, phone and internet bookers are sent an online invoice to their email address, which they have the option of paying either via Paypal, or credit card but still using the Paypal site as a host. This way the customers details remain secure, and they know there is no way of us using them to take more money without their permission. Whether booking in person or electronically they are shown a copy of our refund and cancellation policy, and must sign - or tick an electronic check box - that they agree to it. Here's how it reads:

"Deposits
A deposit per person of 500THB for activities and 2500THB for courses is required at the time of booking. The balance of payment is due on the day of the adventure.

Refunds
Refunds are available on deposits for the following conditions only:
1) Goodtime Adventures is unable to offer either the adventure booked or a suitable alternative (activity or date), for example due to weather conditions or staff illness
2) The customer is unable to take part in the booked adventure due to illness or injury, provided Goodtime Adventures is notified 24 hours before the scheduled departure time of the trip

If you need to contact us to change or reschedule a booking, please be aware that our office opening hours are 08.30am-19.00pm.

Bad weather, staff illness/injury & equipment failure
1) If no part of an adventure is possible and a mutually agreed time to reschedule is not possible, the customer is entitled to a full refund of monies paid including the deposit
2) If up to half an adventure is possible the customer agrees to pay half price
3) If over half an adventure is possible the customer agrees to pay the full price

If Goodtime Adventures has made the full adventure available but the customer chooses not to participate in any or all parts, the customer is liable for full payment at Goodtime Adventures’ discretion."

Like I said its not foolproof in all locations, but it means we never cancel trips on remaining customers who no show/cancel last minute, as their deposit goes towards covering boat/equipment/staffing costs etc anyway. We can be somewhat flexible on this though - for a regular customer for whom last minute cancellation is an anomaly, there is some wiggle room. For new customers who hedge their bets and ditch us for another company - no chance!

 

[bada3003]

That's a good point. One mitigating factor is: if a dive charter has 1-2 slots available (but minimum has been reached), then some who make decisions at the last minute (due to weather or otherwise) can make use those slots. Within the 5-day window, they would be charged if cancelled.

Another possibility is: have charter offerings, same rule as 5-day case, but the time window is reduced to 1 day instead of 5. It's just a matter of multiple products to suit different needs. Within a 24-hour window, cancellations are charged. That's the business model many tennis clubs follow. In NYC, all-year round. In Indiana, mostly during indoor winter season.

I have seen a few cases where decisions are made a couple of hours in advance, mostly for weather related reasons. In principle, with smartphones and such, time windows could be shrunk to that level. Practically, I would think that very short advance notices can operated in an ad hoc fashion with, perhaps, most demand met by the more stable several-day time windows.

On our local boats that would not work at all. There are a lot of local divers who jump on if there is a slot open and the weather looks good. I have seen many charters get the needed number of divers with only a day or two to go. I have done that many times myself. See the weather is looking good, a day opens up. so you pop down for a couple dives.

 

[telecaster71]

I didn't realize this happens so often....Guess that's why I own my own private boat