There are some misinformed people, including instructors, bashing PADI and the MSD

[pt40fathoms]

Training is as adequate, rigorous, and thorough as the instructor. I have never taken any scuba course that I didn't learn something from. In some specialty areas, what I learned were subtle and finer points. I got quite a bit from both my GUE and PADI instruction. Becoming a PADI Instructor was a significant accomplishment to me. I have been extremely fortunate, however, to have been associated with fine instructors throughout my courses.

I wish you well with your 'learning things with a buddy' approach.
I suggest, however, that there is merit in looking harder into specialty instruction. On occasion it can offer insight and information that can save you a lot of grief from having to discover the same lessons while learning them with a buddy.

Very well put! My thoughts exactly.

I noticed that the next post from CHRPAI was unfortunately somewhat hostile although typical, and not entirely unexpected. Oh well, you tried....

 

[Zippsy]

Chris,
Why the need to inject that acronym into this discussion?

To make us laugh? It worked for me.

 

[Zippsy]

...That application was revised as the standards have been updated. Sounds like your instructor was not up on the standards changes as released in the 1st Quarter 2002 Training Bulletin.

Jeeze, Drew. You mean we are supposed to read those things?

 

[matt_unique]

After my NAUI basic O/W, and many years of diving, I decided to try out the best of all the others. So I took the SSI AOW and Rescue Diver courses (although PADI has a great rescue diver course as well), and the PADI Divemaster course. An opportunity to join a NAUI ITC and return to my NAUI roots appeared, and I took it. The NAUI Master Diver manual is the technical course book for the NAUI ITC at our store, although other topics such as leadership and teaching are a part of the ITC as well.

I found the NAUI Master Diver manual to be on a reasonable par with the PADI D/M materials, particularly the PADI Encyclopoedia of Recreational Diving.

As a NAUI instructor, I teach by NAUI's standards and methods. Sometimes I will fold-in some PADI things that NAUI does not have, such as PADI's 5-point descent procedures. There are many things that both agencies have that are similar, only named differently, such as NAUI's ABCD pre-dive buddy check, and PADI's BWRAF (begin with review and friend); or NAUI's SEABAG predive briefing vs PADI's 15-point predive briefing.

PADI's strongest courses are their basic rescue course and their divemaster course, in my opinion, based on my observations as a PADI D/M. These are as good as SSI's or NAUI's if not even a little more comprehensively taught.

However PADI's Master Diver course leaves a lot to be desired, when compared to either NAUI or SSI. In particular, the PADI Master Diver course is no more than an additional AOW segment in the PADI format of mostly just going on more dives with an instructor and divemasters.

>>I would be curious to know how the NAUI format is so different from PADI? The PADI courses follow text, require chapter quizzes, require viewing a video, require a final exam (in some but not all cases), and require demonstrated proficiency in the water. (There are some posts above that claim you can reach MSD without actual dives. This is contrary to my experience as of my Oct 2003 MSD application process.) How does the NAUI format differ? Perhaps this is a question for another thread but I am curious based on your comment about the PADI format above.

I do not know why PADI offers a Master Diver course in its current format. Its divers would be better off in a PADI D/M course, or else to be at least required to master their Encyclopoedia of Recreational Diving. That is probably the main difference between PADI and the two other agencies.

>>This is just absolute nonsense....in New England...it is a fact that most DM's do most of their dives in less than 30' of water from a shore dive as part of the DM program. (If they go out and conduct decompression dives on a wreck for pleasure that is another matter). In the course of their DM program, they go to the same local boring shallow novice dive sites. The diving exposure available to a MSD is 100 times more advanced than this. There may be DM's doing these dives with a MSDT instructing a MSD student but the demand is so much higher for OW that they spend most of their time diving with students/instructor at that novice level. This again is why DM's choose this path because they love to teach and want to become instructors, not because they think they will be learning advanced techniques at advanced dive sites.

I cannot speak for YMCA. I have friends who dive and teach for YMCA, but I know little or nothing personally about their programs.

Overall I must agree with Perpet's observations of the PADI Master Diver course. Just a lot more worthless plastic cards. Matt, you are probably more than ready to join a PADI D/M class now, however, and that is where you will really start to learn a lot about scuba diving.

>>I can't comment on NAUI, I have no experience with them. The intent of my thread was to correct some of the misconceptions about the PADI MSD. As I mentioned in my original thread, I chose the MSD over the DM to avoid repetitive novice dive experiences. Again this was not in line with my goals. Those who enter the DM program, in my experience, do so to become instructors. They do not choose the DM path because they think it represents advanced dive training. Your attempt to marginalize my skills as part of my MSD certification notwithstanding I agree there are probably some MSD's that are terrible divers. The same could be said for most any certification level. However, there are also MSD's with hundreds of dives in many environments as an extension of the skills and exposure they received as part of the MSD program. My point is, repeating from a previous thread, that the MSD, like any certification, is as good as the diver and the instructor.

--Matt

 

[matt_unique]

Being a full time PADI Instructor who processes MSD applications for our shop, I'm quite familiar with the requirements as they have changed. The most recent version of the MSD application is PRODUCT NO. 10142 V 2.0 (12/01).

In no way does that version of the application state that non-diving specialities do not count. It does reflect other changes implemented in the standards revision such as the requirement for 50 logged dives and the acceptance of qualifying certifications from other agencies to meet requirements for completion of AOW and Rescue Diver.

That application was revised as the standards have been updated. Sounds like your instructor was not up on the standards changes as released in the 1st Quarter 2002 Training Bulletin.

>>If I was provided an outdated MSD application then I may very well be mistaken with some of my points. I can comment on my experience with the MSD process but certainly not as an instructor. I'll check with my instructor and verify.

--Matt

 

[simbrooks]

Back on the topic of MSD, i was wondering about taking the NAUI, i was reading thru the NAUI website and couldnt find any pre-requisites for the course apart from OW, AOW and Rescue i think. There wasnt any quotable minimum number of dives or other specialities that had to be done. I am currently trying to put together a package of SSI specialities to get an AOW and then Rescue, under SSI or PADI's way i would be most of the way to getting my MSD. However looking at the required dives and elective dives of the NAUI MSD i am pretty sure that i would be covering ground that i am already hoping to have been taught for the AOW specialities, the overall course at least has some dives involved, which is a definate advantage over the other two agencies mentioned and not just another card to show you have collected a few already.

I tried to ask this question on the preceeding threads about MSD, Junior MSD, PADI vs SSI, but so far have had no answer.

 

[GDI]

As much as people do not like it PADI is the big boy on the block. I find on average there is a very different attitude of dive instructors from up north compared to those down south and truthfully I believe the northern instructors or those from the north for this level of diving tend to be more thorough, IMHO. The PADI MSD program has exams depending on the specialties that the diver has completed. There is a exam for nitrox, for wreck, for cavern and any other specialty that the instructor may teach self directed or otherwise. The MSD diver needs to fully complete five specialties, they must have rescue, they must have current CPR, they must have a specified number of dives. They are not professional divers. The MSD is a signatory c-card showing the diver who possess it has a love of diving. C-cards may not mean anything to some of you, but like it or not they represent a credential for having learned something.

 

[AndyTaylor]

I have been pondering the value of my own MSD qualification since "collecting that card" 8 months ago.

It occurred to me that PADI are missing out on an opportunity to make some money out of me and other diver of similar qualification.

I chose not to do the DM course as I did not want / feel able to become an instructor. I wanted to further my experience and training.

I find it interesting that so many people feel the need to "dis" other peoples opinions and qualifications. Why is this, is your diving not fulfilling enough. I have dived with various levels of buddy over the past few years and I really don't care about a persons qualification level or the organisation that taught them, so long as they are a careful buddy who does not put me or themselves at unnecessary risk.

I agree that the MSD qualification is not much but it is the highest non-professional qualification available in PADI, so I went for it.

I still consider myself to be learning on almost every dive, and always will, there are many people more experienced than I and many who are less, that is part of what makes diving fun, I can help less experienced divers learn by my example, and learn from the rest.

Sorry if this isn't very contentious but it's my humble opinion.

 

[Uncle Pug]

PADI's choice of the acronym MSD for their highest non-professional qualification seems rather short sighted.

But, it would make for a lot of laughs if some one stepped onto our dive boat and said, "I'm an MSD."

On another note in response to dragging DIRf into this discussion:

If (without any other information provided) I was given the choice of either a relatively new diver who had successfully completed a DIRf or a more experienced MSD as a buddy... there is no question of who I would choose.

 

[Chien]

PADI's choice of the acronym MSD for their highest non-professional qualification seems rather short sighted.

But it would make for a lot of laughs if some one stepped onto our dive boat and said, "I'm an MSD."

On another note in response to dragging the DIRf into this discussion:

If (without anyother information provided) I was given the buddy choice of either a relatively new diver who had successfully completed a DIRf and a more experienced MSD... there is no question of who I would choose.

Who would you select and why would that be?