There are some misinformed people, including instructors, bashing PADI and the MSD

[diverbrian]

Wow, indigo blue that was a good answer!!! It helped me make up my mind to go do my aow with ssi.(I have my ow with padi)

Does anyone know if you can switch back and forth between padi, and ssi. I mean if I have my OW with padi can I switch to SSI for my AOW, or will I need my OW from SSI to take the AOW? Than lets say one day I wanted to go back to padi for my divemaster, could I with my AOW cert. from SSI.

Our LDS is very liberal about accepting certs from other agencies. A couple of people in our Dive Con program had their Advanced Cards from PADI.

Cross certifications among most of the recreational agencies is not a problem at all. Our LDS issues SSI certs, but will accept certs from other recognized agencies as pre-requisites for any advanced courses. The training standards are also real nice about using that "or equivalent" phrase to allow for this.

As to the MSD certifications, I see the issue as having one card that says (in SSI's case) that you have five DIVING specialties with Stress and Rescue being one of them and fifty dives. This consolidates that info onto one card for those that feel that need. It sounds like PADI isn't that much different. The NAUI MSD sounds closer to my idea of what an MSD probably should be. But having said that.... I have to agree that many people that call themselves a "Master Diver" need to examine their attitudes. This isn't about diving skill, this is referring to ability to learn from others. For someone to say that they are a "Master Diver", they are saying that having diving mastered. I am starting that era of my diving career where I find that I know the more I learn, the more that I need to learn. I prefer to be like my Advanced Nitrox instructor (when I can be so humble, this is personal flaw of mine sometimes) and think of myself as a newbie with a few more dives than some others. The title "Master Diver" does not lend itself to that attitude.

 

[GDI]

Who would you select and why would that be?

Hey Pug really who would that be? (I'm soooo baaaaad)

 

[diverbrian]

PADI's choice of the acronym MSD for their highest non-professional qualification seems rather short sighted.

But, it would make for a lot of laughs if some one stepped onto our dive boat and said, "I'm an MSD."

On another note in response to dragging DIRf into this discussion:

If (without any other information provided) I was given the choice of either a relatively new diver who had successfully completed a DIRf or a more experienced MSD as a buddy... there is no question of who I would choose.

UP,

I am saying this with due respect. I didn't like seeing GUE dragged into yet another discussion that didn't involve DIR and I would expect that we would respond differently (I am referring to all of us.) We know the posters who like to grind axes with DIRf. I sometimes am one of them, but not lately as I don't grind axes until someone grinds on me or somebody else.

I know that DIFf is good training and that someone who passed that course would more than likely be a better buddy for you and the other GUE trained divers. But, (and your buddy with same first name as me and I had this discussion in another thread) this can be construed as "waving the GUE flag" and sidetrack the discussion more than it has already been sidetracked.

Personally, I will normally take a newer, "less set in their ways" dive buddy myself unless I know the experienced one. But, it comes down to attitude for me as it does for most. I will take the one that I am most compatible with. (And if she is great looking lady that will seal the decision! )

 

[simbrooks]

Maybe the title is misleading, just like the advanced, but what can you call someone who has trained hard to learn more and doesnt want to go the pro route - competent diver, expert diver, experienced diver, accomplished diver, capable/able/proficient diver?? What other words spring to mind to say you are more than basic, if advanced is already used and belittled somewhat in its context - maybe that should be changed to intermeadiate and master to advanced? If i were to get this qualification (assuming i took the NAUI course and did something for it) then i would consider myself to have more dives under my belt and slightly more confident in certain situations maybe, but no not completely mastering diving - but it should be a standard that others look to and try to achieve, if they dont want to be a pro.

In another case i would wonder if DM's are really masters and also if some instructors have the training/experience to teach. Our OW instructor was only had 166 logged dives in 11 years of diving, most of which i think was photography - that concerned me after i saw his log tally. I know you can become a PADI instructor after only 100 dives, but i didnt realise until i saw it that he was so "inexperienced", didnt mean he couldnt take us to the lake we did our checkouts in and watch us do them, but i am not sure if i would have got more info and experience from a more experienced diver who was an instructor. The more experienced instructors at that LDS only trained more advanced levels (i think i heard that reduced liability somehow), which doesnt help the BOW divers learn as much in my opinion.

 

[MikeFerrara]

As much as people do not like it PADI is the big boy on the block. I find on average there is a very different attitude of dive instructors from up north compared to those down south and truthfully I believe the northern instructors or those from the north for this level of diving tend to be more thorough, IMHO. The PADI MSD program has exams depending on the specialties that the diver has completed. There is a exam for nitrox, for wreck, for cavern and any other specialty that the instructor may teach self directed or otherwise. The MSD diver needs to fully complete five specialties, they must have rescue, they must have current CPR, they must have a specified number of dives. They are not professional divers. The MSD is a signatory c-card showing the diver who possess it has a love of diving. C-cards may not mean anything to some of you, but like it or not they represent a credential for having learned something.

The PADI cavern course does not have a text or test and nether does the ice diving specialty last time I looked.

 

[matt_unique]

PADI's choice of the acronym MSD for their highest non-professional qualification seems rather short sighted.

But, it would make for a lot of laughs if some one stepped onto our dive boat and said, "I'm an MSD."

On another note in response to dragging DIRf into this discussion:

If (without any other information provided) I was given the choice of either a relatively new diver who had successfully completed a DIRf or a more experienced MSD as a buddy... there is no question of who I would choose.

Before a new diver steps on my boat I have asked them about their certifications and a few questions about their dive experience. The certification alone does not provide me with all the necessary information to evaluate the skill level and determine the most appriopriate dive sites. If I have invited new divers to join me I choose sites based on the least experienced diver.

Before you "laugh" at someone with the mere mention of the MSD certification you may want to make sure your experience is indeed beyond theirs as you appear to imply. It would be like going to a martial arts competition and laughing at the mere mention of competitor X who received his Y belt from school Z. Make sure you don't have your as* handed to you, metaphorically speaking as related to diving, before you pass judgement on that diver and school and certification. That person may have 1000 dives more than you, or he may have 1000 dives less than you. Look at the certification as a starting point, then asses actual skills.

This is just getting stupid....we need a moderator that can add some common sense to this thread....oh wait a minute....oops.

--Matt

 

[Walter]

"Before you "laugh" at someone with the mere mention of the MSD certification you may want to make sure your experience is indeed beyond theirs as you appear to imply."

Well, they might be the best diver alive, but they still used poor judgement in buying that useless card. That is funny. I'll laugh at that.

 

[matt_unique]

Our LDS is very liberal about accepting certs from other agencies. A couple of people in our Dive Con program had their Advanced Cards from PADI.

Cross certifications among most of the recreational agencies is not a problem at all. Our LDS issues SSI certs, but will accept certs from other recognized agencies as pre-requisites for any advanced courses. The training standards are also real nice about using that "or equivalent" phrase to allow for this.

As to the MSD certifications, I see the issue as having one card that says (in SSI's case) that you have five DIVING specialties with Stress and Rescue being one of them and fifty dives. This consolidates that info onto one card for those that feel that need. It sounds like PADI isn't that much different. The NAUI MSD sounds closer to my idea of what an MSD probably should be. But having said that.... I have to agree that many people that call themselves a "Master Diver" need to examine their attitudes. This isn't about diving skill, this is referring to ability to learn from others. For someone to say that they are a "Master Diver", they are saying that having diving mastered. I am starting that era of my diving career where I find that I know the more I learn, the more that I need to learn. I prefer to be like my Advanced Nitrox instructor (when I can be so humble, this is personal flaw of mine sometimes) and think of myself as a newbie with a few more dives than some others. The title "Master Diver" does not lend itself to that attitude.

PADI and the other organizations refer to the divers who complete the prerequisites as "Master Divers". The divers did not create that title for themselves. For me the MSD represented a benchmark prior to beginning technical training (TDI). It was a goal of mine for some years and I am proud to have accomplished it. A certification title given to me by PADI does not dictate my diving attitude. I agree with yours in fact, as related to diving, that I am a novice compared to where I aspire to be or compared to some of my friends. I too am a newbie with a few more dives/experience than some, and a lot less dives/experience than some.

--Matt

 

[diverbrian]

Before a new diver steps on my boat I have asked them about their certifications and a few questions about their dive experience. The certification alone does not provide me with all the necessary information to evaluate the skill level and determine the most appriopriate dive sites. If I have invited new divers to join me I choose sites based on the least experienced diver.

Before you "laugh" at someone with the mere mention of the MSD certification you may want to make sure your experience is indeed beyond theirs as you appear to imply. It would be like going to a martial arts competition and laughing at the mere mention of competitor X who received his Y belt from school Z. Make sure you don't have your as* handed to you, metaphorically speaking as related to diving, before you pass judgement on that diver and school and certification. That person may have 1000 dives more than you, or he may have 1000 dives less than you. Look at the certification as a starting point, then asses actual skills.

This is just getting stupid....we need a moderator that can add some common sense to this thread....oh wait a minute....oops.

--Matt

Matt,

A couple of points (as I agree with most of this post)...

1. A diver with a thousand dives done in poor trim in Caribbean water may not be as good a diver as someone with two hundred dives who has been diving in harsher climates and maintaining good trim and buoyancy. Talk to Mike Ferrara and many veteran instructors about this.

2. Forgive my criticism, but there is a way to respectfully suggest that someone may be out of line. UP has been a moderator on this board since I joined and while he may be sarcastic at times, he is fair on the whole.
His comments where actually more fair in this case (IMO) than the people who brought that dreaded acronym that seems to equal "flame war" into this whole conversation. The moderators here are volunteers. I would expect us (the average poster) to keep the sarcastic side comments directed to them in open forums at a minimum. As if you read UP's statement, he did say with "no other information provided". I can't imagine him or any other experienced diver diving with someone and having no other info other than certs. So that is a moot point.

3. Having said all of this, I agree with you about dive buddies. I like to know my buddies personality as much as his certs. The prospect of diving with a risk taker doesn't appeal to me. Just like submarines, I would prefer for my number of successful ascents to be equal to my number of descents .

 

[diverbrian]

PADI and the other organizations refer to the divers who complete the prerequisites as "Master Divers". The divers did not create that title for themselves. For me the MSD represented a benchmark prior to beginning technical training (TDI). It was a goal of mine for some years and I am proud to have accomplished it. A certification title given to me by PADI does not dictate my diving attitude. I agree with yours in fact, as related to diving, that I am a novice compared to where I aspire to be or compared to some of my friends. I too am a newbie with a few more dives/experience than some, and a lot less dives/experience than some.

--Matt

My start to staged decompression diving required an Advanced card, x number of dives, a good attitude, and for me to be eighteen or greater. I don't even think that IANTD issues a Master Diver card (I never checked, nor do I care to). My start to that world in any case was actually my AOW and sufficient confidence over enough dives that I could do it safely. I wound up going that route to improve my skills and found that I actually enjoyed Accelerated Decompression type of diving in spite of the heavy doubles and lugging a stage bottle.