There are some misinformed people, including instructors, bashing PADI and the MSD

[GDI]

I just posted on a thread regarding diving clubs in the UK. Reading this thread (again) I remebered a diver whom I met in a club in Eastern Canada, Halifax. His attitude was something like this. He would not dive with anyone who did not hold at least a DM level. He had his reasons and I remember thinking that was his choice. He himself a DM I felt that this was unfortunate as his experience as suggested by cert would best have been illustrated by diving with those who sought his opinion. Into this club comes another diver who possessed a MSD cert. The card given to him as a present from his 5 year old son who had earned the registration money through his allowance and selling lemonade curbside. The DM like most of you did not feel that this card held any weight to it and would not dive with the new member. The club took a trip to Vancouver Island to make a dive. In Victoria, Pat, the new member was greeted by some of his buddies. It was here the DM was humbled to a very embarassing degree. You see Pat was a Navy Clearance Diver, One of the "MEN OF HONOUR" if you will. The DM did not know this, all he saw was the MSD card He knew nothing else regarding Pat and made no attempt to learn more. The next day on the dives Pat, myself and another gentleman named Paul Dumas (who was my o/w instructor in Petawawa) all dived together as a odd man team. We enjoyed our day of diving right up until Pat had to pull the DM out of the hold of a wreck. All divers were OK considering the incident that occured. Pat not being disrespectful told the DM that he allowed his overconfidence to get him into trouble and that he was diving beyond his limits. Based on the continued conversation Pat also added (and I remember it went something like this) We are trained by the experiences and lessons learned of those before us. We receive credentials that indicate an achieved level of expertise. Those of higher levels should mentor the up and coming. I (Pat) am not so quick to judge someone solely on what immediate papers they possess and I don't belittle them any either, I wait to see if they can walk the walk. Arrogant attitudes are never welcomed and should be left on the dock. The DM was not PADI he was NAUI and he could not walk the walk (Fact: not an attempt to bash so I apoligize to any NAUI divers whom may have been offended). Pat and I became good friends that week. He retired from the Canadian Navy after 25 years as a Clearance Diver. He is a class act and a PADI Instructor. So in remembering this I think we need to repsectfully let the credentials represent an achieved level of expertise and then see if the holder can walk the walk. I have never held a MSD cert card and I entered the PADI system at the Resue Diver/DM level.

Just a comment for thought

 

[okidoki]

For those bashing PADI and the Master Diver certification - you need to do some homework, and some sensible thinking.....

With the exception of 1 dive per applicable "specialty" dive from AOW (such as deep and night), dives count for only one specialty at a time. You cannot do a boat dive on a wreck at night in a drysuit breathing nitrox, etc. and have this one dive apply to 5 specialties. Each specialty has a different number of required dives in addition to completing the course book, end of chapter knowledge tests (to be handed in to the instructor and discussed), video, and in some cases a final exam. Not all specialty courses require a final written exam. These courses require demonstrated proficiency in the water. As we all know the instructor sets the bar for this portion.

PADI advertises how one would be "well qualified" to move into the Dive Master program once they have completed the Master Diver certification. Dive Master is not a step forward from Master Diver in terms of certifications. It is a different "direction" altogether. There is no "paradox" as referenced in another post. PADI simply and obviously wants to try to get more training revenue. As this same person pointed out, the MSD is attained with 50 logged dives, the completion of AOW and Rescue, and the completion of 5 specialty courses. These 5 specialty courses MUST be dive related contrary to several bashers. Non-diving certifications do not count towards the MSD. Also keep in mind what Dive Masters do....this is not a knock on DM's....but they assist instructors with what are usually novice classes from shore in 30 feet of water. This does not apply to all and I know many DM's with tons of experience that really know their sh*t. I also know many DM's that are very inexperienced and have little or no advanced diving experience. The same could be said for Master Divers.

Once you attain Rescue Diver in the PADI system you have two paths to choose from. You can either go directly into the Dive Master program or you can proceed with specialties to work toward the Master Diver.

I chose the Master Diver route because I wanted to expand my skills in ways that would not often be addressed with the Dive Master program. As with *most* instructors in New England, there is more demand for open water classes so instructors and Dive Masters spend most of their time chasing weight belts in 30 feet of water. Again, this is not a knock on instructors or DM's, I appreciate their passion and desire to train. It is just a fact based on student demand. This was not in line with what I wanted to do.

--Matt

Hi Matt According to the training bulletin of the first quarter 2002 you can add the following: WITH CERTIFICATION IN ANY FIVE SPECIALTY RATINGS

 

[Uncle Pug]

Way to close this topic.

You really think this topic can be closed?

As an aside... I wouldn't refuse to dive with someone just because they had been a Navy diver... shoot I would even dive with a commercial diver at least once.

But I would pick a vanilla site for starters and try to keep a sharp eye on them... as best I could seeing as how the ones I've dove with were prone not just to rototill but actually excavate the bottom.

 

[Lawman]

Beyond OW nobody much cares what cards you carry. These specialites
and advanced certs are fine. They help maintain interest in diving & training.
They make the diver feel some accomplishment and help keep him or her interested in the sport. Here in the Great White North [-19 F today] it gives
us something to work on over the winter. Sure, they don't mean much but they don't hurt either. Our danger is not what we learn, it's what we forget.
Anything that keeps us learning about our sport is a good thing.

 

[DFC5343]

You really think this topic can be closed?

As an aside... I wouldn't refuse to dive with someone just because they had been a Navy diver... shoot I would even dive with a commercial diver at least once.

But I would pick a vanilla site for starters and try to keep a sharp eye on them... as best I could seeing as how the ones I've dove with were prone not just to rototill but actually excavate the bottom.

LOL..rarely see the bottom unless it looking for bugs,scallops and fish.

 

[neil]

Hey boys and girls,
..........
If only they told you what was really out there. You really have to work pretty hard just to find out what your options are and where the mark should be and that's a shame. ............................................
...

Mike,
Interesting exercise: I don't know anything about diving or diving instruction. Tell me what's out there. Explain my options, where the mark is and how to get there. Seriously, how would YOU explain all that to a potential student/customer?
Neil

 

[MikeFerrara]

Mike,
Interesting exercise: I don't know anything about diving or diving instruction. Tell me what's out there. Explain my options, where the mark is and how to get there. Seriously, how would YOU explain all that to a potential student/customer?
Neil

Good question. It's pretty hard with a customer who just walks in the door. It's also pretty hard here on the board when divers hear what you say but only have what they've seen as a reference.

Once I have them in class though is's a bit different. I don't limit their knowledge of the diving world to the PADI chart that shows all the classes for one thing. Not only do they know that people dive in the tropics of the world but they know that the Great Lakes have some of the best wreck diving in the world and that Missouri has incredible caves and everything inbetween.

I have videos that I show. I have random videos that I've collected of divers. You know the videos that resorts often make and then offer to sell you? I also have video of very skilled divers. Even some one who doesn't know anything about diving can tell the difference at a glance.

It's easy to see that the more skilled divers are far more relaxed alert and having more fun. I not only discuss those skills in the context of enjoyment but also how being able to handle a task or a problem while maintaining depth and position control relates to safety. I also do a quick review of the DAN report pointing out, among other things, the frequency that buoyancy control problems and rapid ascents are reported in accidents.

I discuss equipment in the context of the control (skills) we want and the execution of emergency procedures. We essentially review different configurations, associated procedures and why we use what we use. We also demonstrate that "why" in the water. I also talk a little about obtaining equipment including pointing them to recourses like Airspeed Press and contrast the policies of companies like say abyss and aqualung.

When discussing continueing education with them I don't limit the discussion to the courses between OW and MSD. I make recommendations based on my experience in the context of having the goal of going from the first video to the second.

I know it sounds like a lot but it really doesn't take much class time and they leave with a pretty good understanding of the environment their sport takes place in not only in the water but in the dive shop and the internet.

These divers are less likely to be seen blindly following a DM while bouncing off the bottom and wearing at least one of every pretty colored clippy dangly thing that the dive shop sells.

 

[neil]

I like it. I do some of that and plan to do more.
N

 

[GDI]

It is very important to relate your experiences to students. They should also understand that if they close their mind to just diving in warm waters as a example then they are really missing out on so much out there. Many divers just take the O/W card and run with that. With that in mind I tell students that the more they know the better it gets. The whole word has so many different things to see while diving. I thank things like the Discovery Channel for showing more than what TV commercials and Magazine ads do.