The value of PADI

[Doc]

Given the direction they're heading, I wouldn't be surprised at all if they went almost 100% online with some "skills verification" centers in resort areas that would demonstrate a few of the important skills in-person before the OW dives. Online is pretty much 100% profit. They stream some video, run the quizzes and take the money. I'm sure if you gave them a choice, they would much rather have the $120 they get for the on-line "class" instead of the few bucks they get for printing books.I really can't come up with a good business reason for them to have outside instructors.

What a few of us have been saying for years. An obvious truth for those who see.

 

[rstofer]

I'm in the middle of crafting a detailed letter to PADI explaining my reasons for not renewing my DM status

You remember the old saying about keeping your friends close and your enemies closer? If you continue your DM status you will know a lot more about what 'the other side' is doing.

I have no idea what it costs to renew but having access to the goings on within PADI is worth something.

Richard

 

[Walter]

I have no idea what it costs to renew but having access to the goings on within PADI is worth something.

Why ?

 

[Thalassamania]

Who cares what goes on inside PADI? It's not like you get a vote or something.

 

[rstofer]

If nothing else, "Look what they're doing! Our program is so much better and here's why!" With real facts...

I guess I am always unwilling to give up on something in which I have made an investment of time (or money, apparently). Without knowing how much the renewal costs, I would have the opinion that I would continue just because of the prior investment of time (and money).

Last year, I rejoined the APBA (American Power Boat Association). Now, there is no way my wife will let me race hydros again but I was interested in what was going on. What classes were popular, what was happening with kids, who was hot locally (some of the same names from back in '86 - these folks refuse to give up) and in some cases the kids from way back then are now the leaders as adults. It was a fascinating trip down memory lane.

It's just worth something to know what's going on.

Richard

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Exactly! DM status costs around 100 bucks a year for which I really get nothing. Access to a website, a cheezy magazine where one of the latest quotes by the editor is that he loves diving with computers because he DOES NOT HAVE TO THINK! WTFS! ?? And the UW Journal which used to have some decent articles about diving is all marketing and elearning BS. And why will they not let independents make use of the elearning? I'm thinking mainly because indies do not spend enough money. Another crock o crap.

I question the elearning statement about the students being academically solid. Based on what? The 18 question or whatever it is quick review? I have not seen this test as it available only to instructors affiliated with a dive "center". I don't want to affiliate with a center. I like being an independent who has the freedom to work with a couple shops and keep the bulk of what I charge for classes. I have another job so cannot teach full time. And in this area I do not know one indie who is able to.

On principle I'm against taking this training out of the classroom. If you are good on a computer I'm guessing that you could go thru the online portion in a couple days as I did with the book. Filled out all the knowledge reviews, went over them in a short class, got a little extra info and then 3 2-2 1/2 hour pool sessions. It seemed fine until I needed to start recalling some of that stuff on my own. I wonder how many would be academically "solid" if they waited two weeks or a month before taking the "quick review" if they did not have time to review it in the couple days before doing it?

I just started a new class this week with my boss and his wife. Both very intelligent and both motivated.

To the point that they ask alot of questions. Most often and the one I really do appreciate my students asking is -Why? Can the elearning course give an answer to that every time it comes into a students mind? Because it says so is not good enough. We discovered last night that mask clearing is going to take a little work. She got it about 2 out of 4 times but is still having issues with a full flood that I will not give her a pass on til they are cleared away. The fact that we do mask clearing every session, and there will be at least 7 of them, is going to give us the time to make sure she has it down. How is it possible to fully address things like this in 2 or 3 sessions?

I also when going thru DM had to buy a 25 dollar ERDP that is now no good for classes. You have to buy an ERDP ML! What's next an ERDP ML PDQ? WHat a crock. WHat does the diver do when they are using this and it craps out or somebody sets a tank on it? Diving for the day is done! I can run over my tables with my Envoy and they will still work! I can set up a new plan underwater with my tables or the Wheel. Can't do this with the handy dandy dive planning gizmo by Ronco! I can do multi level dives on the Wheel as well as on the RDP and the ERDP.

And I also have an issue with the "distinctive specialties" or as I and a few others I know call them- the PT Barnum cards. For those who are a little younger Barnum coined the phrase-" There's a sucker born every minute." And this is what many of these seem to take advantage of and they even count towards the so-called master diver cert. I cannot morally and ethically teach stuff like this or be associated with an organization that does.

 

[The Chairman]

PADI does what it advertises it does rather nicely: teach the world to dive. Most the people that I have met who have taken a PADI course are more than "OK" with it. They enjoyed the experience so much, that they encouraged a loved one to take it as well.

I have taught the e-learning classes for SDI and have found the comprehension by the students to be far superior than many of those who suffer through the traditional classes.

What is at the root of this is a large discrepancy over what many instructors see as "essential" skills. There are a few who would want all divers to come out as DMs or Master Diver caliber students. Never mind that MOST DIVERS do not want to make a career out of diving. They want to plop in the water and see all the pretty fishies. PADI enables that for a LOT of divers. Good for them.

 

[Walter]

PADI does what it advertises it does rather nicely: teach the world to dive. Most the people that I have met who have taken a PADI course are more than "OK" with it.

Yes, PADI certifies lots of people to dive, we all agree with that. Yes, most folks are happy with their class, we all agree with that. No one has disputed those points. I'll go farther and state that I fully support PADI's right to teach diving exactly as they do or may decide to do in the future. I fully support any adult's right to make an informed decision to take any type of dive class they want. Pete, those issues are not in dispute nor is anyone debating them.

What is an issue are the lies that are often told about training. "All agencies are the same," "All agencies have adopted RSTC standards," "It's the instructor, not the agency," are a few examples of the lies that are often told about training. These lies are seen here and elsewhere. There are very big differences in the type of training offered by the typical PADI class and the type of training offered by a much smaller group of instructors who advocate a comprehensive approach to dive training. I'm glad to see you are acknowledging those differences. You are correct in stating there is, "a large discrepancy over what many instructors see as "essential" skills."

Everyone has a right to a clear understanding of what those differences of opinions are and the reasons for those differences of opinions. Mislabeling what folks on the other side of the debate serves no useful purpose. Things in this debate I would love to see disappear are referring to "military or SEAL" training, calling PADI "Put Another Dollar In" or any other disparaging interpretation of their name or any other type of character assassination such as referring to people as "elitists." They have no place in these discussions.

There are a few who would want all divers to come out as DMs or Master Diver caliber students.

That all depends on your definition of exactly what that caliber might be. My OW students might be of that caliber by some definitions, but they have a long, long way to go by mine.

Never mind that MOST DIVERS do not want to make a career out of diving. They want to plop in the water and see all the pretty fishies.

I don't see that at all. The vast majority of dive classes offer exactly that. There's no danger of those classes going away any time soon. Some people, a miniority, want something more. They want to take more time, they want to learn more skills, they want to practice those skills more. They should be able to learn about differences and have the same right to take the class they want as those folks who merely want to plop in the water and see all the pretty fishies.

 

[The Chairman]

Yes, PADI certifies lots of people to dive, we all agree with that. Yes, most folks are happy with their class, we all agree with that.

Then why all the angst? They are happy and so am I!

What is an issue are the lies that are often told about training. "All agencies are the same,"

you keep saying that, but how is someone's opinion a "lie"? Some people think that all American cars are the same. Big whoop! Just because people have the temerity to disagree with YOU does not make them out to be a liar!

"All agencies have adopted RSTC standards,"

NAUI is not a part of the WRSTC... so what? I don't see this being argued. It's a Red Herring.

"It's the instructor, not the agency,"

I truly believe this: it's NO LIE. The instructor makes more difference than any other mitigating factor other than student attitude. In fact, I would say that those who say differently have an Anti-PADI agenda (which you have) and are the REAL liars. Hey, PADI sued you. They lost! Life goes on! Don't harbor the bitterness any further.

Everyone has a right to a clear understanding of what those differences of opinions are

Very few people even CARE about the minuscule issues you raise... mainly because they are HAPPY about their course! It seems that the ONLY ONE not happy about their course is YOU, and frankly who cares about you? AND when you spew your elitism, if anyone DARES oppose you, you play the "you accept advertising" trump card. I dare you to get off your high horse on this. It's just as valid as you being biased by PADI suing you. Give it a REST!!!

That all depends on your definition of exactly what that caliber might be. My OW students might be of that caliber by some definitions, but they have a long, long way to go by mine.

I've seen your students. I would not ever call them DM quality. I think that's just a self perpetuating myth so you sound like you are an uber instructor or something.

Some people, a miniority, want something more. They want to take more time, they want to learn more skills, they want to practice those skills more. They should be able to learn about differences and have the same right to take the class they want as those folks who merely want to plop in the water and see all the pretty fishies.

Great! Let them find an appropriate INSTRUCTOR to do just that.

 

[Walter]

Then why all the angst?

There is none.

They are happy and so am I!

Very good. Me too.

how is someone's opinion a "lie"?

When it disputes the facts.

I don't see this being argued.

Open your eyes. It's argued here frequently.

I truly believe this: it's NO LIE.

I'll grant you that one is opinion and therefore not technically a lie, but it's misleading none the less.

The instructor makes more difference than any other mitigating factor other than student attitude.

It's possible for that to be the case, but it's very rare. Most instructors teach by following standards to the letter. Many are not even aware there's another way to teach.

In fact, I would say that those who say differently have an Anti-PADI agenda (which you have) and are the REAL liars.

No agenda, anti-PADI or otherwise. I do have a low opinion of PADI's standards, but that's based on the standards themselves and the results they produce. I bend over backward to be fair about PADI.

Hey, PADI sued you. They lost! Life goes on!

PADI sued Diverlink, I was a witness. They did lose. Life went on years ago. In fact, the suit took very little of my time and attention even when it was happening.

Don't harbor the bitterness any further.

No bitterness on my part, but judging from memos I saw, there just may be bitterness from others.

Very few people even CARE about the minuscule issues you raise

Perhaps, but there are those who do and they have the same right to the type of class they want. Misleading people undermines that right.

It seems that the ONLY ONE not happy about their course is YOU

If they are happy, I'm happy.

frankly who cares about you? AND when you spew your elitism, if anyone DARES oppose you, you play the "you accept advertising" trump card.

Talk about bitterness, it seems I'm not the one eaten up with bitterness. One time I mentioned the motivation for your change of opinion about training might not have the purest of motives. Once and only once. I understand your anger, but it's not good to hold on to the anger, let it go, Pete.

There's no elitism in anything advocated by me.

Elitism - The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

The methods I advocate make learning to dive easier, allowing those who can't cut the typical class to dive. It's the opposite of elitism as it makes diving a possibility for those to whom it would otherwise be impossible.

It's just as valid as you being biased by PADI suing you.

PADI did not sue me. I do admit I dislike PADI's standards and because of actions they took during their law suit against Diverlink, I have no respect for PADI management, but being aware of those feelings, I try very hard to examine everything regarding PADI very carefully to be fair.

Give it a REST!!!

You are the one who keeps bringing up the suit. Except when it comes up in discussions like this, I rarely give it any thought at all. Perhaps you are the one who needs to give it a rest.

I've seen your students. I would not ever call them DM quality.

Then we are in agreement.

I think that's just a self perpetuating myth so you sound like you are an uber instructor or something.

How could that be? You are the one who made the asinine statement. I disputed it.

Great! Let them find an appropriate INSTRUCTOR to do just that.

Exactly my point.