The value of PADI

[Jim Lapenta]

While I would teach an AOW course right after OW if I felt the student was prepared and had a good grasp of the basics, I prefer that my students would go and just dive for 10 or 15 dives before doing so. They are more than welcome to come along on any weekends I'm diving within their limits or doing checkouts with others. And then I'd rather they do the SEI Advanced Plus which is 10 dives and includes classroom sessions dealing with gas management, navigation, limited visibility procedures,( before doing night or low vis dives) and search and recovery options. All totalled it would involve a minimum of 6 hours more classroom time in addition to the dives. Of which with me 3 would be deep, 3 navigation, 2 search and recovery, and 2 low vis/night. We'd cover altitude procedures and planning as well since the dives locally many times involve diving at altitude(3500ft). On all dives we'd also work on buoyancy and trim, non silting techniques, and buddy communication and skills. As well as going over a few basics like mask off and on, but while maintaining depth at 70 feet or deeper. Conditions permitting I'd also like to see them do an air share at 60-70 feet.

 

[rstofer]

Jim,

This sounds a lot like the old NAUI program of OW I, OW II and Advanced OW. At the end of the program the topics covered and the time spent are about the same.

You program is the way to go. Now the problem is to sell it to the students.

Richard

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I know. But my feeling is in this economy people will be looking at what they are getting for their money very closely. There will still be those who want a quickie course to just get the card. I really do not want to teach those people. If you give me a student and the time to explain the differences in programs and what they get out of each one and then look at the cost I'm betting that I have a better than average chance of getting that student. I've seen AOW courses sold for 175-400 plus for the same course. Now the latter usually include boat dives but still. What exactly do they get? Not much more than they got from their OW course. Except now they have a card that will let them do dives that they are still not really qualified for but will try anyway. As a result they can get into bigger trouble even faster with sometimes more dire consequences. I have a Scuba Experience set up for this Saturday. So far have 4 people who will definitley be there. As many as 8 more may show up. Out of those 12 possibles if I get 2 who are willing to invest the time to take a proper OW course I'm happy. But I'm betting that I'll get all 4 definites. The fact that I also offer a 25 dollar check for every referral a student sends me who signs up for a full class has already had an effect. One lady is talking at her club, beauty shop, church, etc. Let all of these people see what I have to offer and I'm sure when it's time for more training I'll see them again.

 

[NudeDiver]

Jim: I swear to god I saw you (or whomever is in your avatar) in Blockbuster just a few minutes ago. Maybe you have a secret twin roaming around

 

[colo_diver]

As I read through this thread and many others I am left with some WOW impressions.

1) yes PADI has done an amazing marketing job and cartering to the "get it now" and "instant gratification" that we have all become.

2) it is time to get back to OW AND OW2 AND THEN AOW. after all in college you still take accounting 101 and 201 then the 300 level courses.

3) given the ecomony as it is, yes the consumer will be asking more and more questions and ALSO it is time for the dive leaders to stand up and say AOW with 9 dives. NO, I will not take you on this advanced dive. (I know hard to say when the next guy will because he is hungry and needs to eat, but it isnt worth it OK mybe after diving with them for a few days I will rethink that) BUT LET US BE HONEST WITH OUR STUDENTS. JUST BECAUSE YOU PAY $$$ DOESNT MAKE YOU AOW

So how about this instead of "SELLING" AOW we offer OW 2 and that is say $xxx and we offer a sampling of 5 to 8 specialities. We have little discussions on say night diving or boat diving or deep and then we take the students on a dive. This way the student gets to EXPERIENCE other options and they are not SOLD/(thinking) that they are AOW. And if they wish to UPGRADE to AOW then you go from there.

Win for the student they get more EXPERIENCE

Win for the shop/instructor

Win Win for the diving community

 

[scubafritz]

After spending some time talking to scuba instructors in Florida, at LDS that have most types of certifications, I believe that PADI is a marketing company that found scuba as a vehicle for making money.
If you look at the magazine they publish, it is all promotion of the tropics. I live in Michigan and do not get a chance to dive in places like Cozumel. I have never seen an article on diving in fresh water let alone the great lakes.
I believe that there are better sanctioning organizations than PADI based on my experience.
There are places that they pump out instructors like popcorn and the important thing is that you pay your fees. Just check on how long it takes to go from a non-diver to instructor in the different places. Up north, there is so much competition, that the instructors don't want to train you to compete with them. I can see why, the season is shorter and there are fewer divers to go around. As a result, the instructors can be a little tougher here, but not much. In the 70's, scuba certification classes where almost like military boot camp, and you knew what you where doing or you didn't pass. A lot of the instructors back then where ex-military instructors from the Navy.
Now scuba certification is broken down into smaller pieces not only to make it easier, but to keep the cash flow going.
I have dove with lots of PADI divers, some have scared me to the point that I will not go with them anymore. The biggest thing is that the mistakes that are made are some of the simplest thing to remember. It really concerns me as to what these divers would do in an emergency situation.
Last spring I was diving with a group of firefighters, when I asked pre-dive questions, they looked around at each other like, "Who's the new guy?". I just decided to take control and I got the answers. They may not want to dive with me again, either! Ha!
Where I live, we don't have a lot of options unless you want to drive a ways.
PADI also charges so much for insurance that it makes it harder to make any money unless you get lots of students.
Demographics have a lot to do with availability of different sanctioning organizations as well.
Dive safe!

 

[boulderjohn]

The real purpose of the Adventure Diver program is to provide some extended training for younger divers who are not allowed to do the deep dive required for AOW. Once they are old enough to do the deep dive, they can apply their Adventure Dive status to AOW. That's pretty much it.

 

[rstofer]

While I would teach an AOW course right after OW if I felt the student was prepared and had a good grasp of the basics, I prefer that my students would go and just dive for 10 or 15 dives before doing so. They are more than welcome to come along on any weekends I'm diving within their limits or doing checkouts with others. And then I'd rather they do the SEI Advanced Plus which is 10 dives and includes classroom sessions dealing with gas management, navigation, limited visibility procedures,( before doing night or low vis dives) and search and recovery options. All totalled it would involve a minimum of 6 hours more classroom time in addition to the dives. Of which with me 3 would be deep, 3 navigation, 2 search and recovery, and 2 low vis/night. We'd cover altitude procedures and planning as well since the dives locally many times involve diving at altitude(3500ft). On all dives we'd also work on buoyancy and trim, non silting techniques, and buddy communication and skills. As well as going over a few basics like mask off and on, but while maintaining depth at 70 feet or deeper. Conditions permitting I'd also like to see them do an air share at 60-70 feet.

I really hope the SEI model becomes the standard for the industry. And the Advanced Plus is a lot like the old NAUI OW II, Advanced Open Water. One way or the other, you are around 15 dives by the end of the sequence (minimum).

However, I'm going to continue to recommend AOW immediately after OW because I can't think of anything more frightening than 2 OW's taking their own boat out to the middle of the ocean and jumping in. With only 4 open water dives each, combined they know exactly nothing.

Your invitation to former students to join in on other checkout dives is a great idea but it doesn't really expand their knowledge beyond repetition of what they should already know. This is great for their comfort level and that alone is a good reason for attending but I wonder if it is well received. It is frequently offered around here but I don't know how many people take the opportunity. Maybe if more did take advantage of the offer, there would be a lower dropout rate. There's nothing like being comfortable.

I believe that the old OW I, OW II, Advanced OW, Rescue sequence should be the minimum training before divers should consider unsupervised dives. Even though 19 dives is not a lot, the student should have a pretty go idea of what diving is about and they would be exposed to some of the hazards that are glossed over in OW.

I would prefer more supervised dives with more training and sooner would be better than later.

Richard

 

[Thalassamania]

I really hope the SEI model becomes the standard for the industry. And the Advanced Plus is a lot like the old NAUI OW II, Advanced Open Water. One way or the other, you are around 15 dives by the end of the sequence (minimum).

However, I'm going to continue to recommend AOW immediately after OW because I can't think of anything more frightening than 2 OW's taking their own boat out to the middle of the ocean and jumping in. With only 4 open water dives each, combined they know exactly nothing.

Your invitation to former students to join in on other checkout dives is a great idea but it doesn't really expand their knowledge beyond repetition of what they should already know. This is great for their comfort level and that alone is a good reason for attending but I wonder if it is well received. It is frequently offered around here but I don't know how many people take the opportunity. Maybe if more did take advantage of the offer, there would be a lower dropout rate. There's nothing like being comfortable.

I believe that the old OW I, OW II, Advanced OW, Rescue sequence should be the minimum training before divers should consider unsupervised dives. Even though 19 dives is not a lot, the student should have a pretty go idea of what diving is about and they would be exposed to some of the hazards that are glossed over in OW.

I would prefer more supervised dives with more training and sooner would be better than later.

Richard

I'd say that you've got the numbers about right, the earliest that two new divers in the university (AAUS) system could go out on a dive together would be 12 dives (limited to 30 feet) and even that would be unlikely since they usually get 16 or 17 dives in class and then dive with more experienced buddies for their next 12 dives.

 

[RonFrank]

So how about this instead of "SELLING" AOW we offer OW 2 and that is say $xxx and we offer a sampling of 5 to 8 specialties.

While I may agree with your intentions, the reality is PADI is not going to redesign something that is working. I suggest that new divers take OW/AOW back to back, or AOW soon after OW. It is not an advanced class, and any diver with 100 dives likely will not learn much in AOW. That becomes a stumbling block as they may want to do rescue, but may not want to pay the $$$ to do AOW once they have learned most of the skills that are taught in that class.

There are plenty of divers out there with a lot of experience and only OW.

While many of us on SB agree that more time spent learning to dive would be a good thing, I'm betting the majority of new students want the quick hit certification that PADI and the other agencies provide. That maybe unfortunate, but I believe it to be the truth.

Another factor is cost. If PADI turned OW into four days of classroom/pool, and ten certification dives, class costs would increase. That may result in the number of folks signing up to decrease, or to find an agency that would do it quicker.

The good news is that most instructors I've met do their best, and try very hard to prepare the new diver despite the short four day class. Diver deaths are rare, so they must be doing something right.

Unfortunately I've seen students pass OW that really should not have. The instructors may want to fail these students, but I don't think the LDS would allow it on borderline cases, and that is not a good thing.