The pros and cons of rebuilding your own regulators...

[Genesis]

Beleave me there's more to it than just changing o-rings and You take on all responsability your self and theres no waving the finger at some one if it malfuntions at depth. Be safe let a certified service technician service your gear and if something does go wrong you have a leg to stand on in court.

that:

1. Has not structured themselves as a corporation so they cannot be personally sued when something goes wrong.

2. Will take my place on the bottom in 100' of water when the regulator they just fixed malfunctions.

3. Will accept UNLIMITED, PERSONAL liability for their mistakes that cause me injury or worse.

Then I will agree that you have a point.

You cannot find such a shop. They do not exist, and neither do those mythical technicians.

Wagging my finger at you or suing you is going to be very difficult when I'm laying, cold and dead, on the bottom in 100' of water because you screwed up my regulator rebuild.

In all honesty, nobody - but nobody - cares more than I do about it being done right. After all, its my azz if I screw up.

Anecdotally, we all hear the stories of people who have their regs fail immediately after overhaul, to the point that many agencies actually recommend that you NOT have your gear serviced immediately before a trip (where you do not have the opportunity to check it out for yourself in a pool before using it in earnest.)

Why's that? If you guys are so good, why can't I depend on you to do it right the first time?

Until the day I can, which will happen when Hell freezes, I argue that a guy who is being paid $30 an hour (the shop is keeping half of the typical $60/hour labor charge) is in no way qualified to do this job any more than I am, particularly when he's doing it on a fixed price basis and I have all the time in the world.

He must get the job done in some certain amount of time, or the shop loses money.

I have no such requirement. I can take as long as I want to inspect and clean the parts involved, and go as slowly as required while reassembling the unit.

He cannot.

4 months in school? You're the outlier. The "classes" taught at DEMA give you certification on a particular reg in TWO HOURS.

You know this, why dodge the truth?

If I want to work on an AUTOMOBILE ENGINE for money, and have a certification, it takes me at least a year in a technical training program, plus an apprenticeship, to get an ASE cert. Get an electrician's license to wire someone else's home? That takes about the same amount of time. Do plumbing? Ditto.

I do all of the above, plus my boat's diesel engines, with the exception of things I lack the equipment for (e.g. a full overhaul) on my own. I have zero formal training in any of the above. I've yet to burn down my house, flood it, trash my car engine or blow up my boat or its motors. I know how to read, I know how to ask questions when I don't know the proper procedures, I know how to read (service manuals) and I know how to use tools - and do.

The attempted embargo of the information necessary to service these units, along with the attempted embargo on the parts, is nothing more than an attempt to force people to buy substandard services - worse than they could provide on their own, if they wanted to take the trouble to learn how. It is fraudulent for the very reason noted above - the so-called "professional" will not take your place on the bottom and die for you when they screw up, and you can bet they'll defend against any attempt by your wife to recover for their mistake through corporate organization and other forms of (legal) asset-shielding.

All of which may be legal, but to sell someone on the "ability" to go after someone in court when you know damn well that you've made it next to impossible to recover is dishonest.

How many "scuba shops" don't HAVE a torque wrench, or if they do, don't bother to use it? I can't tell you how many shops I've seen spin valves back on and whack them with a rubber mallet on a crescent wrench to reseat them after a VIP. Never mind that there is a TORQUE SPEC for those valves! Do I trust such a shop to properly overhaul my reg? Why would I expect them to treat my reg any differently than they just did with my tank?

Ditto for the turret swivel retention bolt and the inlet bolt on my reg. Both have TORQUE SPECS. How do you torque them to spec without a torque wrench? You don't. What happens if the turret bolt fails due to being overtightened? The swivel blows off at 100', which is a catastrophic and unrecoverable failure. While the other bolt being too loose is not likely to lead to a catastrophic failure, it darn well can cause a nice leak.

Any more questions?

 

[Aquamaniac]

How many "techs" out there have ever done electrical work in your own homes?

 

[algorithm]

Any course taught at Dema does not make you a technician the word is "CERTIFIED TECHNICIAN" and I'm no liar, being taught by an approved educational facility by the state of Florida like Diving Technologies puts you above the rest. This facility is also responsable for teaching intraductory reg knowledge to navy officers and seal teams. There are allot of peaple offering servicing courses but what they teach has no backing hehind them.
DIVING TECHNOLOGIES INTERNATIONAL, INC. is a pioneer in the training and qualification of diving technicians for over 10 years, maintains a leadership position within the industry with alumni providing service world wide, serving military, police, fire/rescue, collegiate, scientific and sport._
:mean:

 

[Genesis]

Again, I ask:

1. Will you take my place at the bottom of the ocean if I die due to your "service" on my regulator being substandard?

2. Will you, as part of your service agreement when I bring in my reg, accept PERSONAL responsibility, and waive all corporate liability shields and other attempts to prevent me, or my next of kin, from owning your house, car, 401k, dive equipment and other assets if you kill or seriously injure me? In writing, of course - BEFORE I die or am injured.

3. If you screw up and cost me a dive trip because your work is substandard (even if its an expensive one such as a liveaboard), but I am not injured, is all of the work I paid for free and will you cover all my direct expenses (say, rentals for the week on that liveaboard)? That is, will you refund all of my money and cover all my consequential damages (costs), since you didn't do the job right?

If not then your claim of being "superior" doesn't wash.

I have to put MY butt on the line to service my own gear.

You want me trust you?

Then take the same risk that I accept in exchange for my money.

BTW, not answering the question is the same as saying "no".

 

[The Chairman]

Get the magnehelic... it's worth doing things right. Also, one of the MOST IMPORTANT TOOLS is the sonic cleaner. You are not really cleaning your regs thoroughly without one.

 

[The Chairman]

I don't trust them until I see them verified and the person actually do the work. Too many times in the Network environment I see the MCSE boys not be able to resolve an IP address or know the difference between DHCP and DNS.

Certs (knowledge) & Experience & Proper Tools & PROPER ATTITUDE makes a great technician in any area.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Genesis once bubbled...
Again, I ask:

1. Will you take my place at the bottom of the ocean if I die due to your "service" on my regulator being substandard?

2. Will you, as part of your service agreement when I bring in my reg, accept PERSONAL responsibility, and waive all corporate liability shields and other attempts to prevent me, or my next of kin, from owning your house, car, 401k, dive equipment and other assets if you kill or seriously injure me? In writing, of course - BEFORE I die or am injured.

3. If you screw up and cost me a dive trip because your work is substandard (even if its an expensive one such as a liveaboard), but I am not injured, is all of the work I paid for free and will you cover all my direct expenses (say, rentals for the week on that liveaboard)? That is, will you refund all of my money and cover all my consequential damages (costs), since you didn't do the job right?

If not then your claim of being "superior" doesn't wash.

I have to put MY butt on the line to service my own gear.

You want me trust you?

Then take the same risk that I accept in exchange for my money.

BTW, not answering the question is the same as saying "no".

I'm not against divers working on their own equipment. I'm not against drivers working on their own cars either.

But..this is a collection of obsurd statements and questions. The diver is always responsible not a manufacturer or technician. Don't you check your equipment before a dive? A faulty reg can't hurt or kill a good diver.

A faulty reg can't prevent me from diving. I have backups of crirical equipment. You can always rent. If I work on a reg I will back the work not pay for your trip. I got some bad film once. I spent an entire vacation taking pictures that had no chance of comming out. The manufacturer replaced the film not the trip.

If you dive long enough you will have equipment fail no matter who does your work. Best come to terms with this and prepare for it. Or...just stay home.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Genesis once bubbled...



Anecdotally, we all hear the stories of people who have their regs fail immediately after overhaul, to the point that many agencies actually recommend that you NOT have your gear serviced immediately before a trip (where you do not have the opportunity to check it out for yourself in a pool before using it in earnest.)

Why's that? If you guys are so good, why can't I depend on you to do it right the first time?

Until the day I can, which will happen when Hell freezes, I argue that a guy who is being paid $30 an hour (the shop is keeping half of the typical $60/hour labor charge) is in no way qualified to do this job any more than I am, particularly when he's doing it on a fixed price basis and I have all the time in the world.

I have no such requirement. I can take as long as I want to inspect and clean the parts involved, and go as slowly as required while reassembling the unit.

He cannot.





How many "scuba shops" don't HAVE a torque wrench, or if they do, don't bother to use it? I can't tell you how many shops I've seen spin valves back on and whack them with a rubber mallet on a crescent wrench to reseat them after a VIP. Never mind that there is a TORQUE SPEC for those valves! Do I trust such a shop to properly overhaul my reg? Why would I expect them to treat my reg any differently than they just did with my tank?

Ditto for the turret swivel retention bolt and the inlet bolt on my reg. Both have TORQUE SPECS. How do you torque them to spec without a torque wrench? You don't. What happens if the turret bolt fails due to being overtightened? The swivel blows off at 100', which is a catastrophic and unrecoverable failure. While the other bolt being too loose is not likely to lead to a catastrophic failure, it darn well can cause a nice leak.

Any more questions?

Nobody gets thirty dollars an hour in a dive shop for anything ever. What are you smoling?

Regs fail after servicing (usually a leak at the second stage) because the seats wear in some. If you detune this doesn't happen or...when it does you just tweak it a little. This will not kill you.

The torque spec on a tank valve is one grunt. I thought everyone knew that.

Not all regs list any torque specs at all. In fact the special little tools the manufacturer sells for those inlett bolts don't measure torque. Never heard of one failing. Have you?

$30/hour boy don't I wish. Oh and when My wife or I are wearing the tech hat we take what ever time is required to do what ever is required. You see reg servicing is something that is done after hours or at least when there is no other business or anything that must be done during business hours. I guess there are some big shops somewhere but I have never been in a shop that made enough money to hire a tech.

 

[MikeFerrara]

algorithm once bubbled...
I'm an IAST certified scuba technician. International Association of Scuba Technicians. If you work on your own regulator with out being educated your asking for trouble. Befor I was properly trained I took chances with rebuilding my own regs, and all through my dives wonderd if I did it correctly and hesitated to go deep. Beleave me there's more to it than just changing o-rings and You take on all responsability your self and theres no waving the finger at some one if it malfuntions at depth. Be safe let a certified service technician service your gear and if something does go wrong you have a leg to stand on in court. One more thing a one day in service offered by manufactuers of scuba regulators to many dive shop staff does not make you a technician that certificate they give you is ony an attendance certificate. I spent $3000 and four months in school and seven years on the job to learn what I know.

Happy safe diving

I would like to hear more about this.

 

[Genesis]

"Funny little wrenches" for the inlet bolts?

How about a cut-down thinwall socket and a 3/8" drive extension. The former goes on the bolt UNDER the yoke, the latter goes through the yoke screw hole. Then you put on a torque wrench and tighten TO SPEC.

(and you wonder why I don't want anyone else messing with my gear?!)

The torque spec on a tank valve is one grunt eh? Hmmm... might want to talk to the valve folks about that. Seems that there's a numeric value for them to me....

The reason that I kicked all the so-called "mechanics" off my boat, by the way, and bought my own specialized tools to do repairs and the routine (and no-so-routine!) maintenance is exactly this kind of cavalier attitude towards torque values. EVERYTHING under the valve cover of Detroit Diesel head has a torque spec. EVERYTHING. I nearly lost a $50,000 engine due to one of those "mechanics" deciding not to torque to spec (instead using the "one grunt" method) a rocker bridge. It loosened up under load and sheared off the roll pin on which the rockers ride. It was just dumb luck that I had neither a valve and piston collision or a valve just drop into the cylinder, either of which would have wiped out of the engine. Said "mechanic" replaced ALL of the valve-train components subsequent to this, on their dime, but STILL didn't torque the damn thing to spec when they were done! That was it for me.

If $30/hour is too much, then heh, ok. I'm guessing there - the "overhaul" price is $60 or thereabouts, which looks like an hourly charge (it is for "piece-part" work) If the guy doing the work gets less, then that just makes my point even more poignant.

Doc, I have a sonic cleaner. I needed it years ago for cleaning other precision items...